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Everybody loves an underdog. Apart from FanDuel it seems. When the authorities in Missouri announced two untethered sports betting licenses, it seemed like the result would be a non-event. Indeed, FanDuel and DraftKings did apply, but so did Circa Sports. And in a shock move, the Missouri Gaming Commission shunned FanDuel and awarded one of the lucrative sports to the underdog, Circa. So why did the MGC of Missouri choose Surker over Fanjule? And what else has been going on in the US in the last week or so? We'll discuss this, Calch's latest moves, and the future of 1-800-GAMBLER in today's episode of iGaming Daily. iGaming Daily is brought to you by OptiMove, the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming market. I'm Charlie Horner, and today I'm joined by SBC's media managing editor, Jessica Wellman. Jess. How's things? I like it over here. It's a lot less work. Not to say that you don't do work. I'm just saying like, this is nice. You keep doing the intros and I'll just hang out here now. Indeed, the tables have turned. yeah, look, let's dive into this one because this was an interesting story because we all assumed that it would just be Fanjul and Draftkings, right? I mean, to the point where I remember Alex Kane of Spore Trade kind of pointing to this as an example of cronyism, that you very obviously wrote the bill so that these two people, or groups rather, get these two untethered licenses and screw the rest of you. And so the fact that it didn't go to them really was quite the surprise. Yeah, it felt like to have a soccer or a football reference, it really felt like a cup upset, like a small league. club beating Manchester United or Liverpool. So let's look at the decision then. So what happened and I guess how is the decision made? So it's this very kind of obscure criteria, which is par for the course sometimes in these. And each of them kind of presented to the Missouri gaming commission and said, here's what we can bring to the table. And some of the things they're supposed to consider, know, revenue for the state, how much you're going to give back to the state in other ways. I think we've talked about this on the pod ad nauseum that it's more than just tax dollars. It's are you creating jobs? Are you doing programs in the community? Are you helping Missouri in particular in a way that maybe like just money doesn't solve? And in the presentation, Derek Stevens of Circa, you know, kind of just said like we're not for everybody. I'm not here for, you know, the people that want to bet five bucks a pop. I'm here for a higher bank rolled better who takes it more seriously and that's who we are going to court. And I think, you know, it's hard to read the minds of people in this, know, revenue, obviously not the answer in terms of why Circa had the upper hand here, but perhaps in a moment where there's been discussions about over marketing, over saturating a state sees that they're about to roll out and they're like, here's somebody who is going to be a lot more measured in their approach and maybe we should reward that. And maybe just before we go any further forward, we should just outline to the audience who may not know what's the benefit of being untethered compared to being tethered to a partner. Yeah. So first and foremost, Fandle's coming to Missouri. it's not a, so what was set aside in the bill that is now law is that two operators can obtain untethered licenses to operate purely online sports books for $500,000 compared to $250,000 for the tethered. This is where you math geniuses at home might be like, well, what's the point of that? The point of it is that with these, partnerships, these market access deals, they can be structured different ways. It varies partnership to partnership, but you are going to be paying to that partner for giving you access to Missouri and your sharing in the amount of money that you make. maybe somewhere in their head, somebody at Missouri who is very concerned that land-based groups get treated well in this are like, Somebody's going to part in for a circuit and they're going to bring any money off. But if somebody partners with Fandool, that's going to be lucrative. That's going to be money for either a team or a casino. this instance, it is a team. is not a casino. Fandool, as you should in these circumstances, clearly had a backup plan immediately announced that they're going to partner with the MLS team in the area, which is called St. Louis City S. I never understand the initials at the end. I'm going to be honest. Soccer club. Ah, okay. was like, sporting club? I don't know. mean, I'm just like, why is this in South Carolina? That doesn't make any sense. So, know, for FanDuel, is going to, I mean, they'll be fine. They're going to make way more money than Circa ever makes in Missouri, but they are going to have a bit of a hit to their bottom line in paying for a market access agreement. To give you an idea, like I don't think that like this, for example, gives DraftKings some massive advantage in Missouri because they don't have to rev share when their chief competitor does. It's still gonna be a very competitive landscape for the two of them. It's really kind of par for the course for Fandl. They have this situation in most states. So really, Circa, the huge, huge winner here because you're talking about a sports book that... While everybody else is getting on earnings calls talking about we're at 10 % hold, 11 % hold, we're forecasting 14 % hold in two years. Stevens is just like, we're three and a half. We're never going to be much higher than that. They're really at that margin that was much more common in Nevada before the repeal of PASPA, three and a half percent, even low by that standard. You know, usually it's like five, six percent. So for them, to eliminate the middleman is hugely beneficial. know, plaudits to MGC for giving a little guy an opportunity to succeed without some of the burdens that come with trying to enter a new market. we should mention for some of the European and international listeners that Circa is not a big operator targets in all those recreational players are that they are more. going for the sharper end of the market, aren't they? Yeah, and mean, this kind of might, I might be jumping ahead, but we'll talk in a minute about average bet size. Fandle DraftKings, you hear conjecture. I think in Illinois, you have a better sense because they tell you like the number of bets there are. Fandle is like a $25 average bet, something like that. I've heard DraftKings and SGPs, which are more common, tend to be smaller because people are not gonna go huge on the risk there. Circus average bet is 50 bucks, which is again, by the old guard standard, relatively normal if not on the low side, because I mean, when I lived in Las Vegas, I'm not gonna go to a sports book to place a $5 bet. So I would place maybe two $100 bets a year as opposed to $45 bets on my phone. So yeah, it's just like, it's kind of, you know, prime sports books has a similar MO. We don't want to limit people. We're really here for the sharp better. They have, I think they're in a handful of states at this point. I want to say like seven, eight, something like that. And in some of them like Illinois, and they just opened in here in Kentucky, really nice sports books, similar to the one in Las Vegas, which again, for the international set, if you haven't seen it, gorgeous, like gigantic old school board of screens, stadium style seating, really nice and something you just don't see as much anymore. So they're kind of retro in that respect. talking about bet sizes, as Circa is obviously known for taking a different approach to others, but they've done something a little bit different. Do want to explain what they're doing in Missouri? in Missouri. This is in Illinois, you mean? sorry, in Illinois. Forgive me. No, it's a lot happening with Circa. I mean, I don't think we've ever talked about Circa this much in total than we have this week. Just days after getting selected and kind of saying like, we're here to like give back to your community. I mean, I will say reading the transcript, Stevens did kind of say, we're not here for just like the $2 better. He was very clear about that. But then they kind of turn around. And in Illinois, where a couple of books have tried the, they're going to do it as a fee, although that, that's a whole other podcast episode where we're not sure if that fee is taxable or not, but it sure seems like the IGB intends to tax it as of right now. And then the other books have kind of to, in response to this, you're going to be taxed per transaction have said, well, we're going to up our minimum bet to a dollar circus. Like, We're upping our minimum bet to $10, which I know doesn't sound like a lot. There's a mile of difference between someone whose standard bet size is five bucks and someone who's standard bet size is $20. I'm a $5 better. If I really like something, I drop two units and I bet $10. So like it would just be a non-starter for me in Illinois to go to Circa because I don't want to have a minimum bet that bit. that's probably indicative of the sort of target demographic that they're going after in that sort of sharper end of the market. Just finally, before we go to a break, we've made a lot about the shunning of Fanjul for Circa, perhaps more interestingly, Draftkings was selected for an untethered license over Fanjul, which is kind of weird. That's the one I weird, just intriguing. Like you ever have your friend like... bring around a boyfriend or a girlfriend and you're just like, I mean, I don't get it, but okay, if it makes you happy. No, no offense to DraftKings. DraftKings tends to be in the news more for marketing, overstepping with marketing and that sort of thing. Fandual generally considered to be out ahead of them in terms of just like metrics, although it's always shifting in relatively close. Yeah, I think there were a couple of just eyebrows raised on like, oh, DraftKings and not FanDuel, huh? Okay. Again, I was out and traveling while the petitions were being presented. And I'll be honest that I didn't get to see the full presentation. From what I've heard from Tom Nightingale, FanDuel maybe overemphasized revenue. at the expense of giving back to the state. And that to him was kind of the key difference between the two. And I think is reflective of how you're going to have to approach state lawmakers in addition to regulators going forward is here's what we're going to do for Missouri. Here's what we're going to do for California, et cetera, et cetera. we say, it's not going to make a huge difference between the two bottom lines. But I think DraftKings will take the small PR win where they can get them. Okay, Jess, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and round up some of the other biggest US gambling news stories. All right, welcome back to iGaming Daily. I'm joined by SBC's managing editor, Jessica Wellman. Jess, it's been a couple of weeks since we've spoken about Cal-She and I'm, I for one, I'm getting withdrawals. So I think we need to revisit this one. You listen to the Mark Dunbar pod, right? Because I will say not for my, not because I was there, but like that was a really good listen. And one that framed it a lot differently for me than I had realized. I mean, did I sob into a pillow for a couple hours knowing this was now gonna be two hours or two years of my life? But it was very good. Right now, two sides of the coin. Let's start with the consumer facing stuff and then we'll do the legal lab. Consumer facing. Effective today, which is Tuesday when we're recording, on CalSHI you can now have event contracts related to point totals, touchdown related contracts and spread contracts, which Prior to this, was really just yes, no, who's gonna win the game. And awards, they've done those kinds of things too. So they are expanding the catalog and you're starting to see the trend that if they can phrase it as a question, which is kind of how you have to do it, it'll be like, will, to those of you not watching, brackets, event, know, happen with bracket, event or person. or team XIZ. think as long as you can construct it as a question somehow, Cal, she's planning to roll it out eventually. if it's a question, it's not sports betting. That's the key distinction that we're Well, it's economic position, Charlie, because as we've talked to death, Cal, she'll tell you that everything has economic consequences, which I mean is kind of true. I was thinking about this reading up on the latest legal stuff that to me there is a world where there are, like say gaming wins this court battle. To me there is still a world where some contracts that exist on Cal-She are also markets and sports books. Because like, for those of you who don't watch the NFL, towards the end of the season, a lot of the narratives can become like, Travis Kelsey is gonna have a huge game because if he gets two touchdowns before the end of the season, he triggers XYZ bonus. And so like the economic impact of him catching touchdowns is actually like pretty material. So I'm curious and I need to ask the lawyers at IMGL, those who attend in Lisbon, I need to ask them just like. Are there contracts that do make sense in both worlds, even if Kal-Shei loses? Yeah, we've done our best to do that with the Venn diagrams and the overlapping circles that we did a few weeks ago, but it was great to have an actual lawyer on the show to clear some of those questions up. And I feel like we might be leaning on IMGL a little bit more often, particularly in Lisbon, to get some answers I told Andy, I was like, can I just like go to IMGL for a day? And he was like, absolutely not. And it's true. You want to be at Lisbon, you want to be at our event, but like the co-locating of IMDL means a lot of really interesting people in this space are going to be there as well and hopping back and forth between the two. absolutely. Please do come to SBC Summit. There is a lot of court cases going on as we've mentioned. Are there any more updates from these myriad of court cases that we've been discussing? Okay. So we are now in... for those keeping track. New Jersey, Nevada, Maryland, California, the Third Circuit, the Fourth Circuit. The Third Circuit has a date of oral arguments of September 10th. While that is a date to have in the calendar and we'll get to hear the arguments, it's gonna be months before they actually write a response to those arguments. Meanwhile, in Nevada, here's what's going on that is kind of interesting and I will be writing it up today. So ideally it'll be live now as you're listening to it in the future. In Nevada, there's debate on whether or not we need discovery. Charlie, have I talked about lawsuits enough that you know what discovery is? Yes, but for the benefit of the listeners. You'll play dumb for me. Discovery is the process where you get to kind of petition information from your opponent in the case, who, know, I need XYZ information in order to make my case, et cetera, et Kal-She has made a motion for summary judgment, which would speed this process up a lot, saying, all you're doing is debating the letter of the law. You don't need to go through our files. You don't need to go through our tech. You don't need to go through our emails with the CFTC. in order to make this decision. And they're trying to stay discovery, like put it off until they get a ruling on this summary judgment thing. Meanwhile, both the Nevada regulators and the Nevada Resorts Association, who is an associated person in this case, like they're attached to the plaintiff, They're just like, nah, man, you said we were going to do discovery. The judge already kind of listened and agreed discovery was probably necessary. We're moving forward and you need to chill and give us what you need to give us. And so that'll be an interesting one because every one of these cases is going to have discovery involved potentially. So seeing how one handles it and if the legal arguments one side is making hold weight with somebody is gonna you know, potentially domino effect the others. Uh, Koushi, I mean, somewhat fairly making the point that why does the Nevada Resorts Association need to understand like how their tech works and if they're capable of geolocating in order to make a legal argument about if this is legal or not? You know, I mean, still parsing through these documents, so I need to fully grasp and wrap my head around it. But it is kind of the latest big topic is how much under the hood are we going to get or is this just purely a semantic debate and there's no need to move any further in terms of looking around at what Cal she is doing. Well, listeners can keep up to date with all of this on SBC Americas, but rumbling under the surface is also we have the CFTC leadership, Brian Quintence. Will he take up the reins at the CFTC? Obviously we know he's a board member at Cal-Shia or he was. I think he's agreed to step down if he is installed. But is there any update on this or do we have to keep waiting? So right now there is not. Thank God. Finally I get a break on something. One last thing on the discovery. Apparently like NRA kind of hinted like... seems like this group is kind of bribing the CFTC right now. in the response, Kal, she very snarkily was like, well, if you think that you should be suing the CFTC, they're getting very contentious in their wording, which makes these more fun. Quintens, right now we are in the middle of a recess for Senate. So they will be out through Labor Day. Then they come back for like three weeks before they are out for a period again. So right now nothing is happening. Behind the scenes, I'm sure stuff is happening. Dustin Goukher at Event Horizon Newsletter continues to have like the FOIA requests and is on top of it. Because I just do not have the energy to do this, I'm just gonna point you to Dustin if you wanna read all of those. It's still very, it seems very up in the air, but we haven't heard news beyond the last time we've talked about. Well, it's nice to know that we're not bombarded with so much news. get a break of something. Okay, Jess, briefly, because we are sort of running out of time, but we did do quite an impassioned episode of iGaming Daily a few weeks ago about the future of 1-800-GAMBLER, and I believe there's been an update on that one. So would you like to bring us up to speed on this? Yes, because recall, our question was just like, what do you guys want? For those who missed the episode, the... Council of Compulsive Gambling of New Jersey is actually the owner of 1-800-GAMBLER. They've owned it since like back in the 80s and 90s when Nevada and New Jersey were kind the only gambling games in town. For the past three years, NCPG had been licensing that number to use it as a national level to just kind of get somebody on the phone and immediately get them to the state that they needed to get to in order to get help. They are currently still overseeing that. We have comment on SBC Americas from CCGNJ every time Charlie, I can't remember this acronym. It doesn't roll off the tongue. That their intent and what they want is we have never wanted to re-up the contract with them. We did not, you know, agree to that. We don't want to go to arbitration because in our minds the contract is over. We're doing what we can to keep it online because like you guys, we think it needs to be online. However, We think we are a better group to run and manage this at the national level than NCPG is, and that's what we want to do going forward. So be sure to check that out. Tom Nightingale very on top of it and has like detailed statements from them about what their plans are. The bright side is it does sound like whatever happens, somebody who cares very deeply about making sure this hotline is available is going to be in charge of this hotline, which is good news. absolutely. That's what everyone wants to hear. But if you want to know what happens next, please remember to visit SBC Americas because Jess, Tom and Justin will have all of the latest news, not just on that story, but from all of the news shaping the US sports betting and online casino industry. And you can keep up to date with all the global sports betting and online casino news by tuning into iGaming Daily every day. See you next time.