iGaming Daily

00:00
Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast. The relationship between betting and sports is as old as either sector as we all know, as we've discussed quite a lot on this podcast. But increasingly the strong commercial connections between the two over the past few decades have been facing a lot of pressure, particularly in recent years. This is something that I've seen a lot of over here in the UK, but it's also something that's becoming increasingly prominent in the US, I think, since the past year repeal in 2018 and the growth of the industry there.

00:30
So to talk about this, I'm here with my colleague, Justin Byers from the SBC Americas team. And we're gonna talk about a topic that's really kind of come to the forefront over the past few days. So over here in the UK, a lot of the scrutiny and pressure, the relationship between betting and sports has received is focused on sponsorship and the visibility, excuse me, stumbled on the words there, the visibility of betting and sports, the potential societal impacts this could have.

00:58
But we saw a deluge of online abuse received by a certain tennis player over the weekend which has really introduced a new dynamic to this. But for lot of American audiences, as Justin has covered quite extensively on SBC Americas, this topic will be a lot more familiar. So yeah, before we get into this, course, welcome to the Eye-Gaing Daily Podcast sponsored by Optimove. I'm Ted Holmclay from SBC News. I'm here with Justin from SBC Americas.

01:26
Justin, I think this is the first time you and me have shared a podcast studio, isn't it? So yeah, very pleased to be sitting down with to talk this topic. How are things in America right now? How's life treating you? You know, we can never complain, but things are busy and that's the way we like it. It makes things move fast. And of course, we've always got a bunch of news to share, so I'm excited to crack into this. Yeah, yeah, as you say, there's always something new in this industry coming around to the forefront. So...

01:52
I'll just set the stage with what happened over the weekend. So, Katie Bolter, who is an English tennis player, was competing in the French Open and lost a tiebreak and then received, as I said in the introduction, a real deluge of online abuse, including death threats, people saying things like, I want you to get cancer and all sorts of awful stuff. And this has prompted

02:17
quite an extensive response from the tennis authorities, from the ITF and the WTA, who are, who have become increasingly alert to a lot of online abuse received by players. I think they're particularly concerned about a lot of the abuse received by female tennis players, which is often very like sexist and misogynistic in nature. And as I said earlier, they really touch us on quite a few like, quite a few vile things people often say. And...

02:43
Something that some of the tennis players in particular have commented on and the authorities as well is what they believe to be a connection between betting and a lot of the abuse players receive. So obviously, I shouldn't really need to explain this too much, but when people lose bets that they may have made on a certain player, they'll then get angry about it and take to social media or other forms of communication, online communication to then harass them about it.

03:11
I mean, like I said, in the UK, this is something that has been touched on a bit. And we're very well aware of the fact that a lot of athletes receive a lot of online abuse. I mean, it was quite a public, there was quite a lot of public coverage about when England were knocked out with the 2020 Euros, a lot of players received a ton of online hate. A lot of that was quite racist as well. There was a lot of really awful comments made about them. So this is nothing new to us, but what is new, I think, to a lot of people is the idea that this is linked to betting.

03:41
But then Justin, we've seen in the US, this this is an, this is, this has had a bit, a lot more coverage, hasn't it? Particularly in relation to college athletics. This is something you've covered quite a lot. Yeah. And I think you really bring up a great point about college athletics in itself. know you folks across the pod have been dealing with it with professional athletes, but now with it trickling down to college athletes, to get a little bit more personal. And there's a, there's a gap between there because right now college

04:11
athletics are a big money maker just like pro sports here in America. And because of that, they're getting the notoriety as the professional leagues. And so that's bringing more attention to the abuse that's happening. And I think that's, that's apparent with the March Madness tournament that happened this past spring. And that's going to be a, a parent once we get to next season's college, college football. It's a very interesting comparison, I think, cause because, because obviously

04:37
Like you say, in the UK a lot of this focuses more on the professional game because college athletics over here is a lot more, no disrespect to many of the people I knew who played college athletics, college, know, university football and rugby and so on, but it's a lot more amateur in comparison to the US. It's almost, it's like, obviously people take it very seriously, those who participate in it, but it's more of like a hobby and extracurricular activity. In the US it's a lot more serious, isn't it? I mean, I remember reading something that like some of the

05:05
some of the biggest stadiums in the US, a lot of them are college stadiums, aren't they? Like lot of these ones are bigger than NFL stadiums, NBA courts and stuff like that. So it's obviously something that has a huge following in America. And there's been a lot of a debate, there's been quite a lot of debate around the efficacy of betting on it, right? I are there some, am I right in saying that some states allow betting on college athletics and others don't? Yeah, you're exactly right. And that's been a huge topic of discussion too these past couple of years.

05:34
especially with the influx of money into college sports with NIL. That makes the college game a little bit more. There's more at stake when it comes to college sports now in America with NIL payments to players. And I think that's being showed with the abuse towards players, because that's ramping up as well. But it's crazy because college athletics here stateside, it's so much history rooted in it. You've got fans that are loyal to their

06:03
fan bases because of the school they went to. And then that also puts more money into the pot from sponsorships and different avenues of income. it's really interesting to see how the big business of college sports has also been impacted by the gambling industry itself. think that's a very good point you've raised there about sponsorship. And that's one I think we'll learn.

06:27
We'll come onto a bit later. Obviously another element of all of this is it's like it's athlete protection as well, isn't it? There's been a lot of concern around that. Firstly, on like the integrity side of things. I know a lot of the stuff I've read is some college sports authorities are obviously concerned that a lot of these younger, impressionable players, many of whom might be in need of a bit of extra cash, because you know, we've all been students, you're often, you're not exactly swimming in money, might be more vulnerable to...

06:56
like match manipulation and match fixing. And on top of that, we've now got this other element that's been considered, which is a lot of the abuse these young, often very impressionable sometimes, know, more vulnerable people might be receiving online as a result of betting, as a result of betting on the sports they're involved in. So now, of course, I'm going to come back to the tennis side of things. So in the aftermath of a lot of the abuse Katie Bolter received over the weekend,

07:23
As I the WTA and the ITF have both become quite vocal about this, so there's a quote here from Jessica Pagula, hope I've pronounced her name right, US Open finalist and who's also a member of the WTA Players Council, who was saying that it's time for the gambling industry and social media companies to tackle the problem at its source, and the ITF has also said that it wants to work

07:50
constructively with the industry and have more of a call to action. So this is interesting, I think, because I'm kind of wondering what can the gambling companies themselves do to combat this, right? I mean, obviously they've mentioned social media in there as well. That would be, in my mind, the first port of call would be the people running these platforms, or it'd be X, Facebook, Instagram, whatever. They're surely the ones who can police.

08:19
the comments and the messages people are sending. I'm just wondering, Justin, from what you've seen in the US where this debate has been going on lot longer, how has the industry responded to some of this, if at all, with regarding these calls for a better protection of players online, of athletes online, I should say? Yeah, it's been very interesting to see how...

08:43
gambling companies themselves, how regulators and then how governing bodies of sports handle the situation. I think over the past year, we've seen the NCAA take a step and be proactive. And we we saw that with their Don't Be a Loser video campaign, which was a video campaign that they released during March Madness. And they're still, you know, kind of pumping that out right now. And it's a campaign that's pretty much looking at the sports fan itself.

09:12
and having them look inward and not harass athletes because of their performance on the field. And I think having. Activations like that that are forward and have betters and gamblers thinking themselves, I think that's proven effective. But we've also seen different groups like Epic Global Solutions. Take steps to try and have activations and programs to.

09:39
to let people know about the abuse that's taking place and how to prevent it. It's going to be something that's that's tough for the gambling companies to bridge the gap on because they do want to keep and acquire customers, but they also want to protect the customers that they have and protect the product that they're allowing people to gamble on. And because of that, I think we'll see more operators trying to be proactive in protecting the athlete. But right now,

10:08
they could do more, but we are seeing more campaigns from governing bodies and from outside third party sources kind of bridge that gap and take it over the edge. Yeah. I think you're right with engagement with betters and with sports fans is probably the first port of call, isn't it? For more like some wide reaching campaigns. And I know it sounds sort of almost like a really ridiculous thing to say, but like sometimes I think people

10:33
especially like really fanatical sports fans online need reminding that these athletes are also people, right? Like I said, it sounds like a bit of daft comment to make, but I think people often forget that these are people like you and me out there who just happen to be very good at a certain sport and they don't deserve to be receiving this sort of, yeah, this abuse because someone has lost a few dollars or a few quid on a match.

10:58
We're just going to take a quick ad break and then we'll be back to discuss this topic in a bit more detail. And welcome back to Our Gaming Daily sponsored by Optimove. I'm Ted, I'm here with Justin and we're going to talk a bit more about this topic of athlete abuse and how this is connected to betting, particularly in the aftermath of Katie Bolter receiving a lot of abuse after the French Open. So Justin, just to build on what we've talked about, you've obviously just...

11:26
Talk me through a lot of the initiatives that you've seen going on in the US with a lot of player, or better, and sports fan outreach, particularly by the NCAA, I think have been quite heavily involved in that, because as we said, college athletics is something that has been affected by this quite a lot in America. For what we've seen so far, do think this is a problem that is being addressed quite well?

11:51
Does some of the data we've got out there suggest this is a declining issue and is something that is being addressed? You know, if you would ask me that question a year ago, I would have told you no. But recently, especially this past academic spring, I think we've seen a push about it and it's encouraging. And I think we'll continue to see that. I think outside of the NCAA, we'll see professional sports leagues across America.

12:20
kind of hone in on this, this idea, this, this problem and kind of take ownership of it because they also want to protect their employers and employees. And so I think it's going to be something that's going to be a continued discussion. But of course, there's always more you can do. But I think from a industry whole, there's, there's movement in the right direction. you say, it's, it's, an interesting balance that needs to be found. And I think as you said, the U S

12:49
From what you've just described, sorry, the US, I think, the US gaming industry is definitely showing a lot more forward thinking than I would say that they are in the UK. I think partly this might be because of the fact that because the national betting industry in the US is a lot newer than ours and has really come of age in this digital era, like obviously the PASPA repeal in 2018 is what led to the nationwide growth of the industry. How many states alive now? Is it 40 or just under that?

13:18
Yeah, nearly 40. And you bring up a really great point. I think the newness of it is what's really been captivating in this whole thing. And I think a reason because it is new and because these athletes in America are new to this new type of abuse, they're being more vocal about it and they're they're being more expressive. I know we had a situation in Philadelphia where a.

13:45
a fandel better was harassing Gabby Thomas, who was a Olympic gold medalist in track and fandel ended up banning the better because of the abuse he showed towards Gabby at the actual event in person. And because of that, I think I don't think we would have known about that situation had Gabby not been outspoken about it. And because of this new freshness of the industry, athletes, you know, especially professional ones.

14:11
there's a little bit of ownership you want to have about what you're doing and I think they're trying to take that into consideration when it comes to gambling abuse. It's an interesting point that as well of the idea of player account suspensions because like I say, so this guy, he showed up to the event itself and was like heckling her from the stands or something like that. And then obviously got identified because of that and Infantial went, right, we know who this guy is, we're going to shut down his account.

14:38
I guess the trick there is translating that online because often people, mean some people are just really blatant about it online. They won't hide their account or anything like that and they'll just say whatever they want. They're quite bold with it. But other people will hide behind a fake account, right? And things like that. I guess the trick might be in identifying who this person is who's hiding behind a different account they've got, who's trolling an athlete or whatever and then finding out this person's account.

15:08
their betting account when you don't really know their identity via social media. I think that might be a bit of difficult bridge to cross, but you would also think in today's age of data sharing and just massive amounts of data that these companies collect, social media companies and gambling companies alike have at their disposal, there could be some way to join the dots there. I'm just going to move this conversation on then.

15:34
One of the things I noticed in some of the reporting I saw around this tennis case was one or two players think that partnerships that tennis tournaments have with the industry might be a contributing factor to this. I think that's kind of an interesting point to discuss because I guess from their perspective, they're thinking the tennis companies, the tennis companies, sorry.

15:59
tennis tournaments and authorities are obviously making money out of sponsorships and brand ambassador deals and things like that. And as a result of that, they're giving visibility to the betting firms who people are then placing bets with that when they then lose, they then abuse the athletes. So I think they've drawn, some of these tennis players have drawn a few dots here that do you think this could negatively impact public opinion on the industry? mean, like from a US standpoint.

16:26
Is there already a conversation around betting's visibility and the impact it's having? And do you think that the debates like this around the online abuse could kind of exacerbate that? Yeah, I think you're 100 % right, Ted, because I know right now the American sports landscape is in the middle of the NBA finals. And with that, we're getting multiple opportunities to watch games and gamble on it together collectively as a American sports community. And when you get on social,

16:57
It's a pinpoint that the NBA has secured deals with all of our favorite sports books. And because these games are being swayed so heavily, because these games are so tight, one possession games, there's a sort of like a, I don't want to use the word aura, but there's a feeling around sports being rigged right now because of these leaks securing deals with operators and because of that.

17:26
the leagues and the players are looking out in the interest of the operators and not the fan. And so that's been a huge discussion. And that's something I know tonight we have game six of Pacers Thunder. And I know at some point tonight I'll be hopping on social media and seeing how things are rigged because the NBA has a deal with Vandal. So that's that's the nature we're at right now. But I think it's on the operator and it's on the league to disclose to us

17:55
the consumer how this partnership really works and how it's not being used as a way to get over on the fan. it's, I think it's a little bit more responsibility on these companies now. Yeah, it's because something that's interesting about the US is obviously like we talked about earlier, because the industry is so new, this whole visibility of it and especially via sports is something that's new to the vast majority of Americans whilst

18:22
In countries like the UK and other European nations, we've had betting markets for many decades. The visibility of these companies isn't anything new. People see a bookmaker on most high streets in most major British cities and towns. There'll be a couple of bookmakers. When that's translated into sports marketing, don't think for many people that's been too odd. There's not been an explosion of it. Like I said, it's been getting a lot more scrutiny in recent years because of how much of

18:52
a saturation of it there is that many people feel there is. But it's certainly in comparison to the US, people have gone from having zero visibility of betting to suddenly loads of visibility of betting across all their sports leagues. And that is going to prompt some conversations that are going to make things a bit difficult for the leagues and operators involved.

19:14
Right, Justin, I think we are fresh out of time for this episode. I think we could have carried on talking even more about this. I think this is very interesting topic that we've never actually had the opportunity to cover on our gaming daily. Thank you very much for speaking with me. It's been a pleasure sharing the studio with you for the first time and hopefully we'll get the opportunity to do so in the future. So, Justin, thanks very much and thank you very much to all our listeners.