iGaming Daily

Joe Streeter (00:01.496)
Good morning and welcome to the iGaming Daily brought to you by OptiMove, the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming market. We're talking about a real unique player in the iGaming industry today in Forbidden City and we've got John from Forbidden City to tell us more. John, before we get into it, can you just tell us about your role at the company?

John (00:24.074)
Well, the CEO of our luxury brand that's been around for about 20 years. So I oversee our intellectual property portfolio and look for new opportunities and develop strategies for the future of our business, which has done really well in the sectors of retail and hospitality for the last 20 years.

Joe Streeter (00:44.61)
Nice and those, as we'll get into those opportunities, those unique opportunities are far different to most others within iGaming, but we will get into that. yeah, let's actually talk about what sets Forbidden City apart within the iGaming market.

John (01:02.794)
Well, I think this is probably a world first where a traditional niche luxury industry player has decided to license their brand into.

into iGaming. you we own registered trademarks in various classes all around the world. And I think that we decided after just being in business with ultra high net worth people for so long that many of them were in this industry in some way in crypto or in iGaming.

And we just had a lot of organic feedback from customers to say, hey, have you ever thought about this? And the more I started to think about it, I thought, wow, this is really an interesting opportunity to be able to take one world of retail and hospitality and travel, which our brand is, and discovery, and then parlay that into a totally unrelated world and do that through licensing. So I think that

we're coming at it from an angle where we're leveraging all of the strengths that we built over time. we're bringing really, and we're allowing the operating entity who's going to operate the casino in Asia and other select markets to be able to offer things to clients that nobody else is able to do.

in terms of the way that we're able to do it and how clients can actually physically touch the brand, not just live in it virtually.

Joe Streeter (02:37.901)
Okay, interesting. And when you say physically touch the brand, mean they're going on trips? They're getting the...

John (02:42.97)
Yeah, sure. They can visit us at one of our hotels. We're developing an industry leading and I think revolutionary.

loyalty program that brings together our shopping experience, brings together, you know, iGaming brings together our hotel experience. So customers will be able to redeem their loyalty points for actual real life experiences on the other side of the pond from wherever they are to be able to experience Forbidden City for what it really is. And so I think that that's something that's not really done now. So we

You know, we have a tremendous offering and I think to be able to open that up to a virtual world and welcome people into a world that's known to a very select few customers actually, in terms of what we do in our traditional brick and mortar business is I think is a unique offering and it's really never been done before.

Joe Streeter (03:41.804)
Yeah, it's really interesting actually because, you know, me and my friends have a bet on the football at the weekend. And if we land a bet, obviously this is on a far smaller scale to the things you're talking about, but I think it kind of taps into that same thing. You know, if we win a bet, we would buy like a new pair of trainers or something. And we would say, this is courtesy of...

garnacho first goal and it was nice to put the winnings to something and obviously that's a way smaller scale than what you're talking about but I think it taps into that same sentiment right?

John (04:04.688)
Exactly.

John (04:15.941)
Absolutely. mean, I think if I look at what competitors are doing in the market, it's it's just so materially different to what we're doing. And that's really been kind of interesting. think that, you know, in our retail and hospitality business, we don't really have.

that many people that I would say are direct competitors because we do something so different and so unique and work with a clientele that is really discreet and private. I think in online gaming, we're going to try to do this similar thing. And people will want to be able to experience this world that we've created. And absolutely, it's something where you can put your play to use.

hopefully and experience the rest of our brand.

Joe Streeter (05:05.291)
Yeah, nice. And before we go into the demographic you're tapping into, let's roll it back a little bit. And obviously you're kind of armed with all this feedback from high-end customers on what they would like to see, as you mentioned. Yeah, day one, and you're planning something new, you're stepping into the unknown. How does that look? What does that blueprint look like? I guess how scared were you as well to kind of take this leap and do something completely new?

John (05:34.676)
Well, I think, you know, it is new and it isn't new. In reality, what we're really doing is licensing and franchising. So we'll leave the the the actual operation of the casino to the to some experts who are licensing the brand. But what we're also bringing is really 20 years of tradition and and customer service excellence to them. So, yeah, it's scary to what's really scary is to kind of license a very well established brand with a high pedigree.

into a business where it doesn't have really a great reputation, let's say. So it's how we're going to be able to maintain the brand pedigree throughout the customer experience. And I think that that's one of the greatest challenges as a licensure is always to make sure that your product is represented well. So certainly that is our primary concern. And I think that

You know, we've been dealing with ultra high net worth people. So high rollers on the iGaming side and ultra high net worths in the world of retail and hospitality. And I think that what will happen in the iGaming operation is that it will mimic what we do in traditional retail and hospitality. So we'll have the aspirational play in retail, it's perfumes in iGaming, it's slots, and we'll have our industry leading

loyalty program, Forbidden City Society, where people will be able to aspire to reach higher and higher levels of this Forbidden City Society. you know, just like we have clients on the retail side that, you know, they buy a bottle of perfume and tomorrow they could hit it big and they're buying a $12,000 crocodile bag or, you know, staying at one of our hotels that's really expensive per night. I think that this is

what we're also going to try to mimic in our franchise system on the iGaming side. So we'll have something for everybody and we'll have our core clients that we really focus on who are our super VIPs. We're going to call it Forbidden City Society Solitaire. So those members will really will roll out the red carpet for them. They'll have access to all of our touch points throughout the brand and people will be able to reach towards that as they game more.

John (07:54.55)
on that side. And if they are existing clients, and they're spending with us, they also earn points. So we're really trying to integrate these two under one umbrella to bring both sides together, because I think they're actually quite unfamiliar with each other. You know, I don't think that our

our retail clients are gonna just start to eye game and I don't think our eye gamers are gonna just start to stay in our hotels. But we're gonna create a bridge between them. And I think that's where the strength of this franchise and license really comes into play.

Joe Streeter (08:27.607)
Yeah, you speak about the levelling up. There's lots I want to tap into off the back of that answer. So much to digest. But you speak about the levelling up. mean, that's gamification in its, or gamification in its purest form, right? And that's what can really bring players into this world and to continue to engage with this.

John (08:48.539)
Absolutely. mean, I think that's really the key to it. And that's what we're banking on. So when I look at other loyalty programs, if I'm looking at the travel industry, for instance,

or I'm looking at the hotel loyalty programs, pretty interesting that you have lots of ways to engage with them. you look at credit card programs, American Express, membership rewards, Chase, those players, very interesting ways to engage with their loyalty programs. When I look at iGaming,

Well, I mean, you get some free spins and bonuses, cash back, but nothing that I think really adds to your life and lifestyle. And as a lifestyle brand, we really want to bring that into the world of iGaming. So, I mean, yes, these people are sitting in their homes or they're on their mobile phone and they're gambling, but yes, they do actually have real lives and they are real people. And they also do want to have real experiences. And I think that as a lifestyle brand, we can, we can bring that to them. And it's very exciting for me to welcome.

welcome people who appreciate what we do in the online gaming world, also into our world of retail and hospitality.

Joe Streeter (09:56.664)
Yeah, and John, sometimes they want a $12,000 crocodile bag. I can't let you skip over that because that really piqued my interest. yeah. Is it really? Okay, okay. I was going to say.

John (10:03.368)
That's a cheap one. No, I'm kidding. Not cheap. Inexpensive is the word. Yeah, I'm not going to be like the CEO of another luxury brand. She used the wrong word recently and got him in a load of trouble on a television show. no, mean, of course we have very exclusive products.

Joe Streeter (10:13.231)
Hehehehe

John (10:21.98)
that I think people will be able to learn about and discover. And that's what we really want is this cross-pollination from one world to another. And we hope that it will open up for Forbidden City, a whole new group of clientele that we didn't have pre-pandemic.

Joe Streeter (10:37.057)
How do you decide the prizes? Because it's just piqued my curiosity so much. And that's such a basic question, I understand that. But the portfolio of prizes that you seem to have or rewards, it's so vast from trips away to the crocodile bag, that type of stuff. Yeah, how do you keep it so wide and how do you keep it so varied and how do you kind of decide?

John (10:53.288)
Hmm.

John (10:59.164)
Well, think, you know, again, we're a lifestyle brand and I think that everything represents, prices are simply different values to different customers. And so our prices are...

really decided upon the perceived value of our items and the exclusivity of it. I mean, we're one of the most exclusive niche players, I think, in the world of luxury. And our pricing reflects that. So we have unparalleled quality and craftsmanship in our retail goods and in our hospitality operations. We cater to a very, very select group of people who can afford to stay with us and appreciate discrete and private experience.

and really tailor-made handheld experiences with top service. So I think that our prices always simply reflect what we're offering to you. And as a pragmatic luxury brand, we are truly an offering that makes sense, I think. And I think that's why we've been around for so long as something that just started only 20 years ago. So we're...

we really follow through on making what we do make sense. These prices may not make sense to everyone, but they were never intended to.

Joe Streeter (12:20.951)
Yeah, that's part of the art, right? It's almost personalized for each person so they can really get the experience or the prize they want.

John (12:29.456)
Sure, I I think that we are a nuanced luxury player. So we'll try to have that also in the casino operation side. But I think, you know, every Forbidden City customer walks away from an experience with us in any sector of our business. And I certainly hope that that happens in iGaming as well, where they say, you know, that was really special, but I can't really quite figure out why. And that's the nuance that I think that we bring to luxury that's...

really different from other players. We're not based on hype. We're not based on everyone has to have one. We're based on quality and this idea that, it's really special. I just can't understand why. But that's many, different small facets of things coming together to create a big picture for a client. And that's the magic and art behind it.

Joe Streeter (13:21.005)
Yeah, nice. Well, we're to take a quick break, and then we're going to detail more about some of the markets you're in and a bit more into how you kind of engage the players that you do.

Joe Streeter (13:36.428)
Welcome back everyone and thanks for joining us and thanks for joining us, Jon, well telling us about Forbidden City. Really interesting stuff, a really unique offering, bringing something completely new to the market. I just wanted to ask you, what markets is Forbidden City in and how do you decide which markets are the right ones? Because it's kind of such a niche and that you've got to tap into the right audience.

John (13:41.714)
Pleasure.

John (14:03.474)
Well, I think it's really interesting. We've got this, on the one hand, this established retail and hospitality luxury brand that is definitely Swiss. It's from Geneva. It's been there for quite a while. And then on the other hand, you have such a recognition with the words Forbidden City in Asia. And so I think that right out of the box we're launching in Asia, we have extreme.

brand recognition for another entirely completely different reason in Asia. So we're focusing on this market out of the box and we're really hoping that these customers discover the other side of Forbidden City. So even with our own branded table games, we're really focusing heavily on Asia and the former CIS countries.

Joe Streeter (14:54.709)
Nice. Okay, that's interesting. It feels like a nice fit for Asia too. Yeah, are there any specific Asian markets that you're focusing on?

John (15:02.492)
Yeah, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Hong Kong, Macau. So, you know, these markets for us, I think, are real growth markets in terms of the casino operation. So I think that we're expecting a lot of lot of traffic from those places, mainly because of the name recognition. I Forbidden City in Asia's and the Chinese diaspora is really lucky. So.

Joe Streeter (15:10.913)
Nice.

John (15:32.573)
I think we'll see a lot of traffic coming from these places.

Joe Streeter (15:36.823)
Brilliant and obviously an eye on what's going on in Thailand at the moment as well with the governmental and the regulatory developments.

John (15:44.742)
Well, yeah, I mean, all of these regulations and regulatory, it's a regulatory minefield now. So things can change on a dime. And I think that, you know, our licensee's will have to obviously really pay attention to all of that. Certainly we're from a brand perspective. mean, the

we will only operate in markets and take players from markets where we have a license or if it's unregulated, then of course we'll take players from there. But we're very strict about that and we play by the rules. And I think that's very important and that's part of our brand pedigree as well. So we wanna not get any bad press. We'd like to try to maintain our 20 years of work. And so certainly that's part of the rule book that we have for our licensees.

Joe Streeter (16:32.941)
Yeah, I guess that's a that's a real challenge, right? Like stepping into this industry now, like it's a bit of a minefield in terms of regulations and, you know, avoiding bad press. you've obviously got the Forbidden City brand that is so well sort up. You don't want to kind of you've got to be extra careful, I guess.

John (16:52.359)
I think you to be definitely extra careful. at the end of the day, it's very important to be clear about business relationships and structures. we're very clear on the fact that we're merely licensing our brand to casino operators. And we're leaving the operation of those casinos to them. And so I feel like we're doing something that

really hasn't been done. we're really kind of like merging two worlds. And when you look at a lot of our competitors, know, in online gaming, that is, you know, that's one thing that I sense is missing. mean, we're actually really a brand. And so when I first started talking about iGaming, people said, yeah, we have five brands. And I would look at the websites and say, well, that's not a brand. mean, a brand to me is a place where you can go and shop and,

it has a name and it has recognition and it has intellectual property and some of these things aren't even trademarked. coming from a traditional intellectual property background and brand background and then moving into iGaming, you really see that there's a huge sea of difference in definition when it comes to this. And so I think that

Joe Streeter (18:08.194)
Yeah.

John (18:12.153)
It's very important for us to be really clear with ourselves, with our partners, and with regulators to say, listen, this is how we're doing it. And hopefully they'll be willing to listen before jumping to conclusions.

Joe Streeter (18:28.801)
Yeah, definitely. And that collaboration is crucial, right? Like when you partner with an operator, that's not it then. Then that collaboration is strong and you really work together. Just give us a bit more insight into what that looks like.

John (18:42.691)
Sure. Well, I mean, this is all through license and franchise agreement. So I think that, you know, it's like if you want to go run a McDonald's in Fort Wayne, Indiana, you're going to get a contract from McDonald's. It's, you know, three or four hundred pages long. So this is also something that's really it's been really.

difficult and I wouldn't say difficult, but I would be I would say it's been really challenging to find the right match in terms of who are going to license and franchise this brand to. They've got to have a real understand in depth understanding of what it is we're doing. And then also to be able to take our list of I'd say demands in our license to be able to to actually execute what what we're talking about. know, so I think that's just not normally done.

here and so no one's really used to it. So that's been a big challenge. But I think that we've gotten the point across and now it's working. So we're going to launch here in the next 30 to 60 days in a big way. So I'm really excited about that. I think that, you know, I hope that

we can maintain the pole position for a while, but I hope that other brands join, I think that it's high time at iGaming to have a real look and feel with real brands in the mix.

Joe Streeter (20:08.237)
I couldn't agree more. very exciting times and another market not to be speculative, but it just feels like the perfect fit. And obviously we're awaiting that framework to kind of pan out and develop. We're a few years away, but I've got to ask you, the Middle East, you know, we've seen kind of we're seeing the framework start to unfold in the Middle East. We're seeing casinos kind of start to pin their flag to the ground.

this feels like a perfect fit for the UAE or Dubai. Is that something you're looking at?

John (20:39.545)
Yeah, absolutely we've already started to make preparations for that. You know, I do think it's definitely I agree with you totally. It's a few years off. But, you know, look at Dubai and what they've done. It's it's pretty incredible. It's like the story of Singapore, you 50 years. And and this is where where we've gotten no one ever thought that they would get into gambling. I mean, I was in Dubai in, I think, 2001 when the Burj Al Arab was the only thing there. And you just thought to yourself, wow, just

this is not going to end up being that much. And it's just become everything. I mean, I wouldn't be shocked if we saw Saudi Arabia get into gambling. You know, and that's my general feeling. You know, I have to travel all over the world for work, and I've been doing that for almost 15 years now. So I visit people, I talk to people in governments, I talk to people and.

in business and I think, yeah, I think it will happen in Dubai. I think they'll, of course, at the beginning, be very selective about who they choose. I mean, now we just got, I think, one operator so far. But I think that, it will spread like wildfire because they see it won't affect their society as much. They can create, just like Singapore has, restrictions on who can gamble and who can't gamble. And I think that they'll be able to manage it.

much better than, let's say, democracies can.

Joe Streeter (22:00.887)
Yeah, interesting. yeah, it's a. Now go on. That's very interesting and incredibly. It's going to be fascinating to see how the market does unfold in the Middle East. As you say, I do think we're a few years off any any sort of maturity at all. But I think there's a I think there's a space for you there for sure. So, yeah, exciting times ahead. And just a closer from me, obviously, deal with.

high-end kind of you know very VIP customers is there room or any type of appetite to expand that and to kind of bring in lesser value customers and or do you think that could be done in the industry where this type of formula could work to bring in yeah not necessarily $12,000 crocodile bags but you know $500 Jordans or something like that I think you know do you know what I'm trying to say yeah

John (22:50.436)
Yeah, sure. Or even less. Absolutely I do. I think that, know, again, we, spoke about this a bit earlier. If we look at how, what we did, what we do in luxury, you know, look at all the big brands, you know, we all have a perfume line, but that's an aspirational product. And so that gets someone involved with the brand. creates brand value and it disseminates it to,

to many more people than you possibly could just selling dresses and handbags. So that's really what I also envision for the iGaming operation that hopefully we can have aspirational customers who want to rise up the ranks of Forbidden City society and end up as a high roller. And I think that that's kind of the idea that we like to give them and that they can. So I think if we just mimic what happens in

in retail and hospitality on the iGaming side that yeah, there's room for everybody and we can make everyone feel welcome. Of course, we specialize in treating very wealthy people in a certain way and we know how to make them feel great, but I think with our loyalty program, we also can make mass market feel great and give them the ability to step up a notch.

Joe Streeter (24:10.623)
Amazing well John I appreciate your time this morning it's been a really interesting discussion and yeah watch this space because there's some big moves some really unique moves too so definitely exciting times ahead and I can't wait to see what the future holds for Forbidden City.

John (24:26.245)
Yeah. Thank you, Joe. I appreciate the time.