iGaming Daily

James Ross (00:07.588)
do that again so it's a bit more clear.

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of iGaming Daily in partnership with OptiMove, the number one CRM solution for the iGaming market. I'm joined today by iGaming experts, editor Joe Streeter. Welcome Joe. It's been a while since we've been on. How have you been? Have you been since we've last done the podcast? Yeah, I've been good. Thanks, James. It's really good to be back on with you. And we've got a really good episode today, think. Really interesting one. Two absolutely fascinating markets.

I'm excited to dive deeper and yeah, how are you? How's everything? Everything's fine. Yeah, it's good. Good to be back on. Good to be back in the hot It feels weird. Really? Yeah, yeah. I've missed it and I'm glad I'm jumping on a bit more. I'm to be jumping on a bit more. I am glad. But yeah, it feels weird being back behind the mic. But I'm excited and we have, we have, you've picked and we've picked two interesting topics. The first half we're going to

dive into Rwanda's decision to significantly increase its gambling tax. And then in the second half, we're going to talk all things Thailand regarding its integrated resort bill. first up, Joe, Rwanda, give us a summary of what's been going on. Yeah. So, I mean, it's where to start, right? Where to start, I think. And what I would say before we kind of dive deeper into both of these stories separately.

Before we kind of dive deeper into both of these stories separately, what I would say is they underline that when you're expanding into new markets and when you're eyeing new markets, it's really, really vital to have an understanding of not just the gambling framework in those markets, but also of the wider political climate. And that goes for more mature.

James Ross (02:07.364)
markets and more mature countries as well as newer markets, I think, because as we see here, like things can change at the drop of a hat. So it's really vital to understand the wider political climate. And that is what has shaped the decision in Rwanda, it would seem. So for a little bit of context, Rwanda is currently is reportedly backing

rebel forces in the DR Congo. It's the M23 rebel group. Much to criticism, this is causing some levels of friction with the West, many MEPs calling for a deal on, know, calling for...

James Ross (03:01.668)
With many MEPs wanting to suspend and calling for the suspension of the EU-Rwanda deal and perhaps even more significantly, UK Foreign Secretary David Lammy has stated that Rwanda is putting its $1 billion in foreign aid under threat because of the actions in the DR Congo. Yeah, just for context, everything you're saying now, potentially,

has kind of ramifications for the Rwanda news, which we'll get onto in a second. Yeah, it's important context because it's leading to kind of economic strain for Rwanda. Rwanda is looking to kind of become more economically self-reliant and that, we get there, that is what has led or likely led to these tax rises for the gambling industry that aren't just for the gambling industry, they're part of wider tax hikes in Rwanda.

And let's go on to that now. Let's look at the what the Ministry of Finance in Rwanda has said regarding the These tax rises. Yeah, apologies lots of context a lot to dissect. Yeah, so They have they have stated that it's to kind of support a better to strengthen domestic resource mobilization and to drive economic growth and

That's why they've kind of raised taxes and also to kind of boost social responsibility as well for Rwandan gamblers. One of the big ones around boosting social responsibility they've cited is withholding tax on winnings that will grow from 15 % to 25 % and that's reportedly to stop high value players gambling more frequently.

They've given social responsibility reasons for that. GGR tax is going to be elevated from 13 % to 40%. So a really significant rise there. That's the big rise. That's the biggest one. That's the eye-catching figure right there. And just to hone in on that figure alone.

James Ross (05:18.38)
and everything you've mentioned before regarding the political nuances that are surrounding Rwanda and the West. Call this a medium strategy.

How do you think this relates?

the rise to political west. Okay, well, I think obviously they're trying to boost the economy. They're trying to make their own economy more self reliant. I think that's underlined not just by these taxes, but because they come as part of a wider tax strategy. They're also taxing foreign products such as Netflix and Amazon, and they're introducing mobile phone tax that didn't previously exist.

The reason for this, they've said, is because the reason the mobile phone tax didn't exist was to increase mobile phone penetration, obviously to boost mobile phone usage and just general uptake in the region. And the Ministry of Finance... What's his name? It's Moussif Mourangwa. Yeah, Moussif Mourangwa. He stated that now 80 % of Rwandans have a phone, so...

implying that this tax is able to be introduced. But yeah, all part of a wider plan to introduce, to hike up taxes and just generally boost the coffers at a time when the relationship with the West and with the UK specifically is kind of, there's some friction there because of their action in the Congo. So the two may not be directly related, but

James Ross (07:02.264)
You know, there's a real focus on boosting their economy right now.

Mm-hmm.

James Ross (07:13.476)
I know you're going to have to cut this part.

James Ross (07:21.764)
You've mentioned the tax on mobile phone usage and the thing when it comes to certainly the African market, but you could probably say this about the global market is mobile phone usage when it comes to, well they don't have online gambling there do they? But when it comes to gambling in other regions mobile phones is kind of the first go-to when it comes to gambling. And then when it comes to Africa in itself, it is their main kind of port of

gambling in legal markets. So when operators are looking into this market now to potentially enter, and even just Africa in general, how much of an impact do think it would have on an operator's decision to enter a market when we're seeing such volatile tax increases? Yeah, I think the political volatility will be, it will be significant when operators are looking at

various various markets i think that that will be key that will be something they look at of the african markets rwanda wouldn't be the most attractive anyway i don't think and we have seen across africa to be seen mobile penetration grows significantly so yet but it like i said at the top of the show it really just underlines that you need to that operators will want to have

an understanding of just how volatile the situation is politically before they enter these markets so that frameworks can't just be changed like this or yeah. Okay. There's many moving parts in this. From your point of view, because you've covered the story yourselves, what do you think? How do you see kind of the short term future turning out for kind of Rwanda and its gambling space? Because like I said, these are volatile.

increases in tax and with that again it's not a legal market but I'm right in saying that it's not a legal market it's not a regulated market. think there's regulated brick and mortar retail presence.

James Ross (09:35.044)
think we need to start this again. The whole thing? I think so. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. I'm not so comfortable with... We've just got to be sharp.

James Ross (11:39.82)
No doubt, I fucked up. No, it's good. You need to speak for us. Yeah, okay. Whatever, I'm just gonna have to look and say it. That's all right. Yeah.

James Ross (12:03.66)
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of iGaming Daily in partnership with OptiMove, the number one CRM solution for the iGaming market. I'm joined by iGaming experts editor, Joe Streeter. Welcome to the podcast. How have you been? We've got a lot to dissect today. Yeah, we really do have some, really interesting stories to go into. They've been great to cover on iGamingExpert.com this week and I'm really excited to dive deeper as well. And yeah, it's great to be back on the podcast too. Yeah, it's

It's two stories which, just for full transparency, I am not an expert in these, which is why I've got my iGaming expert with me. But we're going to touch on two significant developments for the global gambling sector. that's Rwanda's decision to significantly increase its gambling taxes. And in the second half of the show, we're going to touch on Thailand and its integrated resort bill. And then if we have time at the end, there's...

There's a story that we might touch on, which includes a drone and a very famous singer who all loves a bet. Yeah, before that, Joe, Rwanda. It's a complex story and I think we need to kind of break this down easy into different segments. So first off, let's focus on the gambling side of things and the tax rises. Can you just give us an update of what the Ministry of the Finance has said and introduced?

The Minister of Finance and Economic Planning, Youssef Mourangwa, he stated during a press conference that a GGR tax would rise for the gambling industry from 13 % to 40%. So quite a monumental rise there. And also withholding tax on winnings would grow from 15 % to 25%. That's one they pinpointed as saying

will slow the frequency in which VIP players, high betting players, high staking players, bet at and will have a positive impact. This is what they've cited, will have a positive impact on social responsibility in the region. I guess it's worth noting before we kind of go into it that tax rises in Rwanda are very much high.

James Ross (14:25.718)
high on the agenda, not just for the gambling industry, but for the wider industries, for various industries, are very much high on the agenda right now and not just tax rises, tax introductions as well, which is quite interesting, including one on mobile phones. They said that mobile phone, the no mobile phone tax was brought into, or the absence of mobile phone tax was there to...

increased mobile penetration, boosting the economy and boosting the tech infrastructure. Now 80 % of Rwandans utilize mobile phones, so they are bringing in a mobile phone tax. They are also bringing in a tax on overseas products such as Netflix and Amazon, citing that they are aiming to drive economic growth and strengthen domestic resource mobilization.

Yeah, really interesting times in Rwanda. Yeah, and I think you highlighted it there. And this is why we're to go on to the other side of this story, which is kind the political side of things. You said to strengthen kind of income and resources within Rwanda and kind of self-sustaining. And that's because, again, there's been political issues when it comes to alleged involvement with rebel groups M23. And you've seen the West kind of retaliate to that. Can you just kind of

provide a bit more of that background and how it may potentially, hypothetically relate to this. Yeah, so right now it seems reported Rwandan backing of rebel forces in the DR Congo has kind of led to retaliation more in the form of threats from the West and specifically from the UK to be honest. With David Lammy saying that

Rwanda's involvement in the DR Congo or alleged involvement in the DR Congo is putting their one billion dollars worth of aid under threat. that will obviously And that's one billion dollars per year from the UK? Yes, every year. Which includes 32 million pounds of bilateral UK assistance. I can read you David Lammy's quotes if you want, these are from earlier in the year. He said that...

James Ross (16:52.104)
All of that is under threat when you attack your neighbors. And we are clear that we cannot have countries challenging the territorial integrity of other countries. Just as we will not tolerate it in the continent of Europe, cannot we cannot tolerate it wherever in the world it happens. We have to be clear about that. And what that means is obviously that would put that puts the Rwandan economy in somewhat of jeopardy.

that withdrawing of funding would be somewhat significant to them. So there's a real focus on boosting domestic economic input, I guess, just boosting their own economy through domestic product. Yeah. There's a whole history kind of behind Rwanda, certainly with the DR Congo, you know, it relates to kind of the hussars and tussies, but then I am not an expert to go into that. I'm not going to delve into it.

but it's interesting to see kind of these developments of how they become self-sustaining and just how volatile they're going to go in terms of taxes. But they said this is a medium strategy. I just want to get your opinion on how you think this medium strategy would actually play out for the gambling sector in general. Well, I don't know. can't make a prediction on what this means for the gambling sector exactly. But what about operators who may be looking in? Yeah, well, I think it will underline is that

What I think it will emphasise is that operators really need an understanding of not just gambling frameworks in countries before they enter, but also in they need an understanding of the wider political climate and political volatility within a region before they enter that market. Yeah, I I've experienced it through various conversations and interviews I've had with companies throughout the sector. There's a lot more eyes turned into Africa now.

So when I get an expert, when you're reporting on these and it's great things to kind of report and to highlight, it really does emphasise that point of you need to understand the market you're going into. We used to say all the time when Latin America first emerged, localisation is key. You need to understand the market is not just one size fits all. Africa is a huge continent and you break it down into countries and countries, they're all different. So, Joe, you're going to be following this Rwanda story as it happens, as it breaks any updates will be on iGamingExpert.

James Ross (19:18.7)
But we're going to leave that, we're going to park that for now. We're going to take a quick ad break. And then when we come back, we are jumping on the jet and heading over to Thailand.

Time check. How long was that?

seven minutes.

James Ross (19:46.188)
I think we made it simpler by just breaking it down a little bit.

James Ross (19:52.916)
Welcome back. As promised, we are now not literally in Thailand, but we're to talk about Thailand. And Joe, again, can you just summarize the updates what's been happening there? Because you have been covering Thailand quite extensively over the past kind of month or so. Yeah, I feel like eyes of the world have been on emerging markets and new markets this year, obviously Brazil. But in terms of land-based casinos, one that presents

significant allure is the Thai market. We know this bill has kind of been accelerated by the relatively new government. And yeah, there was a real change to that bill this week or a shift in pace that I don't think many saw coming. The introduction of a 50 million Thai baht in fixed deposits for at least six months requirement.

for Thai residents to enter the land-based resorts, the integrated resorts they're calling them, a 5,000 Thai baht fee to simply enter the venues. Essentially what these regulations do, what these barriers do is they exclude Thai residents from entering these integrated resorts and these casinos. So they're gonna be strictly for tourists, it seems.

which is a shift in pace that we kind of didn't see coming. Yeah. And this came after a meeting with Thailand's prime minister. I am not going to try and pronounce the name because I butcher it. And China's president Xi Jinping. Yeah. So that was last week. So what they have said is we've actually heard from

James Ross (21:48.214)
We've actually heard from the Secretary General of Thailand's Council of State, Pukorn Nilprapant. He said on Wednesday after the bill, after the adjustments to the bill that they don't want the public to be bogged down by this gambling fanfare. told the Bangkok Post that. The entertainment complexes are man-made tourism attractions and that's the focus, not the gambling.

So they are presenting, imposing strict measures on ties and hoping to stop them from entering and in his quote, becoming gambling addicts. And like you mentioned, you know, it's hard to draw conclusions from this and what led to this. We don't know what exactly direction Bill was going in, in, you know, originally how it was meant to be put forward. But yeah, an interesting meeting, I think last week.

between President Xi Jinping and the Thai President. He warned of the potential impact of gambling in the casino bill in Thailand. It was quite surprising to many that he even brought it up, but he did bring it up. And yes, so since then we've had these changes. I don't draw conclusions that these changes are as a result of that meeting.

but very interesting nonetheless. A quick question because it's worth noting that again gambling in mainland China is illegal. We have Macau as well. Yeah.

If these, again we speak, if these changes didn't come in and residents and citizens of Thailand could use these integrated results, what impact do think that would have had on Macau? It's hard to say, right? It's hard to say. Macau is the gambling capital of Asia, I think. So I think it would take a lot to budget from that status to kind of knock it off its perch. How many ties would

James Ross (23:58.049)
you know.

James Ross (24:01.856)
whether losing kind of Thai residents from Macau.

Sorry.

Yeah, whether the ability for Thais to gamble in Thailand would have had a significant impact on Macau. I don't know. don't think so. But it is very interesting. It's also kind of worth being conscious of the fact that there has always been a focus on these integrated resorts, as they're called, not being gambling venues as such. They are integrated resorts. are entertainment venues. One of the things and

Shinawatra, the Thai president, was always very clear about that. And one of the things she kind of put down as a focus to show that they are entertainment venues is the fact that only 10 % of floor space can be utilized for gambling. yeah, entertainment venues. Also worth noting the locations of, I think there's seven touted venues. The locations, I think,

Bangkok has been said over and over again as a potential the rumour mill has been rife with Bangkok being a venue for these which would again emphasize that they are kind of that the focus was always on tourism and entertainment rather than Thai residents being able to gamble there but nonetheless these restrictive measures on Thai residents did come as a surprise and yeah very interesting quite a drastic step

James Ross (25:37.718)
from the Thai Premiership. Yeah. Kind of rounding up this section, what do you think the next steps are then with this potential update to Casino Bill? Well, I think we've seen Shinowatra since she took over has had a real focus on pushing this bill through. And another factor in this was the opposition party in Thailand.

They put forward a no confidence vote and part of that no confidence vote was the casino bill. was the casino bill, the integrated resorts bill, I should say. They put forward the case that they think it will have a social impact, negative social impact on Thailand and on Thai residents. Well, these restrictions essentially negate that bill.

that element of the no confidence bill anyway because Thai residents simply aren't going to be able to, or largely aren't going to be able to get into the, to gamble in these venues. Perfect. There's plenty more on this story, Joe, that you've covered on iGaming Expert and Thailand in general, because you've been, you've been all over this, certainly the Asian market, you've been all over it. So I'll leave all the links in the description below for the listeners to check out.

But before we round up the podcast today, I did tease a quick five minute section on a either brilliant or stupid viral video that's been going around on social media. I think both can be true, right? A little bit stupid and also a little bit brilliant. Is that fair to say? I think so because we're actually talking about on the podcast. it seems to have worked and that's the drone footage that's

in Drake's apartment or his house or complex, which started off looking at a slots, sorry, online casino website, which we believe is steak. I think so he's taken to Instagram afterwards and put up a post essentially confirming. he's confirmed it. OK. He put up the stakes are high and so am I or something. And the still of him throwing the flip flop slider or whatever. Can we just confirm that was an awful throw? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very flimsy throw.

James Ross (28:02.684)
And then in the next shot is him in a steak T-shirt. I mean, it forms part of this wider steak campaign that is just some of the most extensive guerrilla marketing online that we've ever seen. You can't go anywhere without seeing a steak logo. So yeah, really interesting kind of worked, right? And the Drake partnership is one that should be studied because there's so much coverage they've got from Drake. I'm sure he's not cheap as an ambassador, but.

so much coverage they've got from him. Yeah, it is. I think it's brilliant, to be honest. The first thing I saw as soon as I entered LinkedIn this morning was floods of people saying like, this is either stupid or brilliant. Like, what do people make of this? And it's people within our industry, the marketing side as well. And it's like, well, of course it's brilliant. We're talking about it. And it's so stupidly simple at the same time, but just pure brilliant. Part of the marketing success of it is the

Suspension of disbelief right where you go You know, it's fake right? It's definitely fake. Yeah, is it real? it fake? It's the enigma around you get that then you get people talking and you really You build a bubble. The only thing I would say is You see him on I think it's a Sydney penthouse balcony and he's playing He's on a he's got like a standard iGaming home screen. Mm-hmm. There's nothing in there to

Suggest that that is a steak home screen. It just looks like an iGaming home screen. So I mean, I that advertises iGaming more than it does steak specifically I think yeah, I think they were I've looked at a few comment sections on people's posts on LinkedIn I think people were confirming that it was a steak kind of home screen subtly steak Yeah, mean it didn't scream their branding to me, but you are right It kind of is a advertisement for iGaming in general rather than just steak

An advertisement for playing casino games on a balcony somewhere in a penthouse. It's not accessible to all of us. It makes a nice change from the Bonnie Blue stuff. Let's do it that way. Perfect. Joe, thank you for easing me through my return to the iGame of Year podcast. As you can probably tell, our demeanour has changed from, well, mine anyway, has changed from the start to the end. I am a lot more comfortable now, but...

James Ross (30:23.466)
Happy to be back, you've guided me through some complex stories. And yeah, to those things out there, I will leave any links in the description for you to check out on the stories that we've covered today. And make sure you visit iGaming Expert to find all your latest iGaming news from Joe Streeter and the team. But apart from that, I've been James Ross and this has been iGaming Daily.