iGaming Daily

Ted (00:05.498)
Yeah, I know.

Martyn (00:09.723)
That might not have been you that time actually, Ted. I think we have been doing that in unison.

Martyn (00:18.861)
recording now, are we? Okay.

Martyn (00:25.179)
Calm January for UK gambling has been upended as February brings frantic news of judicial rulings and regulatory hearings carrying significant ramifications for the sector. The High Court has ruled against Skybet in a legal dispute concerning the valid consent of a problem gambler being marketed to. Meanwhile, the DCMS has recommended

Sorry, let me just go from the top again as I've fumbled two out of the first three lines I've written that Ted has written.

Martyn (01:00.859)
Calm January for UK gambling has been upended as...

Martyn (01:09.339)
It appears I can't pronounce the second month of the year, which is a bit of a problem for this. Right, OK. Let's go again.

The DCMS has recommenced its committee hearings on the implementation of the Gambling Review's white paper proposals. Though political consensus is maintained on changes, hearings turned into a critique of Labour's management of the Gambling Review proposals, particularly regarding the RET levy and its reluctance to adopt land-based reforms. iGaming Daily examines a week of disputes in UK gambling.

and questions whether stakeholders can stay on course to complete the outstanding changes of the gambling review. Now, joining me today on iGaming Daily, which is brought to you in partnership with OptiMove, the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming industry, is SPC's content director, Ted Menviar. How are doing, Ted?

Ted (02:23.63)
Very well, how you doing Martin?

Martyn (02:25.711)
Yeah, I've just about recovered from sitting through one of the worst games of football I ever went to on Sunday, which was nice to bring somebody all the way from America as the guest to sit through 90 minutes of abject misery at Old Trafford.

Ted (02:34.022)
heard.

Ted (02:44.701)
Well, congrats to Jess Welman for being such a lucky charm for Men United. a real game changer there. How bad was it?

Martyn (02:47.971)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, they were dreadful, Manchester United. Palace weren't much better, but they were just more effective on the break, really. So it was a classic away win, I suppose you'd put it as. But yeah, if they hadn't beaten Liverpool, and I think they also beat Manchester City earlier in the season, Manchester United would be in deep relegation trouble, actually, which is not.

Ted (03:06.428)
Sick.

Ted (03:19.813)
All right, okay. Was that her first experience of the Great Premier League? Sorry, I find it very comedical.

Martyn (03:21.849)
not something I thought I'd ever say.

Martyn (03:27.193)
Yes it was, was the first, I think, I imagine she will fly back to Kentucky next week, so yeah it's not as good as the NFL, I don't know what the fuss is about with the Premier League.

But unfortunate, unfortunate. Normally it's a bit more action packed. Right, anyway, let's get down to business. We are discussing our old friend, the gambling white paper here in the UK. But, yeah.

Ted (03:50.267)
Yes.

Ted (03:57.985)
I'd say that yeah, but we were discussing I mean like last week was frantic as you mentioned and again, it was a Hard week of news after news coming in from the UK. So a lot of things are up in the air guys

Martyn (04:10.959)
Yeah, sure, sure. So let's, rather than start with the white paper, which we have discussed numerous times, let's have a look at the court case involving Sky Betton and gaming and, well, the ruling went against them. So...

Ted (04:18.812)
Mm.

sure.

Martyn (04:31.375)
Well, tell you what, Ted, give us a bit of background to this case. It's quite an interesting case, but it's a little bit nuanced, isn't it? I mean, the legal team of the claimant, who's a problem gambler, sort of trumpeted this as a massive win, a game-changing ruling, and so on. But it's not quite that straightforward, though, is it?

Ted (04:45.787)
Mm-hmm.

Ted (04:53.839)
Yeah, I mean, I think you've definitely got to read the notes of Judge Collins Rice, who, in considering this case, had to apply all the evidence that was put forward to him and also review kind of the circumstances and specifics of the problem gambler and his engagement with

SkyBets and the application of viable consent in itself as into how that data was gathered and also whether that data would kind of influence him to engage with SkyBets products, right? Also his state of mind, the specific circumstances. And it's important to note that SkyBets still disputes the ruling.

it is considering whether to kind of take another appeal on and that the case itself is now going into its remedial hearing where you actually find out what the actual compensation is on towards the customer. So again, yes, there's been a ruling, but the kind of the definitive have not come out yet. And again, we hit another one of these circumstances where we see

gaming involved in a decision, but people are calling for greater ramifications and they kind of interplace with what's been going on with the gambling review in terms of advertising the parameters on data and interpreting advertising laws and how it can be applied to the wider consumer engagements. Again, it's kind of the

The perfect news story for a frantic end of a frantic week of reporting on UK gambling.

Martyn (06:40.559)
Yeah.

Yeah, mean the background to this is the claim was that Sky had collected a lot of data about this customer and they were using it to have personalized offers and so on for him. And his argument or his lawyer's argument was essentially that because he was a problem gambler, he couldn't give consent despite the fact he'd initially given consent and he'd never withdrawn consent to receive these marketing offers.

Ted (07:05.797)
Yes.

Ted (07:10.631)
Well, look, mean, yeah, sorry. As the judge said, look, the blunt decision was on the mechanisms of sky, which were insufficient. However, even the justice pointed that.

Sky that the customer himself had opted in into receiving SkyBets promotional offers. So again, I think that this is very much a one case interpretation by the High Court.

Martyn (07:32.58)
Yes.

Martyn (07:43.117)
Yes, and if you go through the ruling, you'll see that Mrs Justice Rice-Collins does make it clear that she doesn't see this as setting the scene for a big change and that actually the case takes back to maybe five years, seven years, something like that. And she made it clear that not only have Sky Betting and Gaming tightened up their practices around this, but the whole industry has as well since.

Ted (08:01.243)
Yeah.

Martyn (08:12.347)
But that hasn't stopped one or two people calling for greater change, it? What can you tell us about that, Tad?

Ted (08:22.449)
Well, this weekend, the Observer reported that campaigners for gambling reform, mainly led by Wilpras Chakra, who now leads the Coalition to End Gambling Advertising, that organization believes that these practices are widespread and that there's no kind of accountability in UK gambling towards viable consent and how in its data practices. And they believe that this practice of

know, cookie collection on consumers is being used across the field and that there's a case for intervention to come from the UK Gambling Commission and the Information Commissioners Office. Again, it's important to say that the changes of the white paper are going to come in May 2025 when

operators have to put a mandatory field on opt-in clauses for individual products that they're allowed to market to the customer, which is in direct marketing clause of the white paper. I think kind of the blood, the lines are kind of blurred by there isn't a definitive interpretation of.

data collection in the white in the Gammon Review's white paper and it's kind of unknown whether that's going to be reviewed in up and coming legislation.

Martyn (09:43.823)
Yeah, I I find this case fascinating because before my time at SBC, I did quite a lot of work in digital marketing. And the way you put outside the gambling industry, I should say, in this particular job, and you do build up profiles. There are all sorts of systems you can use for customer profiling in lots of industries. And I don't see anything the gambling industry is doing that is

Ted (09:55.857)
Mm-hmm.

Martyn (10:12.538)
particularly different, particularly more advanced, particularly more pernicious. But you have this added element that they have to take into account, as the judge found in this case, of it's almost a moral issue, but I guess there's a legal definition somewhere. Can somebody who has a gambling order give informed consent to their data being processed? And there's no, I guess there's a legal answer to it, but.

You also have to look at the question of to what extent can an individual operator assess the problem, the state of mind or the illness that the particular player is suffering from when they might be suffering that across 10 or 12 operators. it's a very difficult thing for operators to get right. And I don't think that haranguing them

in public, as we've seen a little bit over the weekend, is going to help the situation.

Ted (11:17.245)
But I also gonna refer back to kind of legal experts view of this. And one of the things is that you can't have a situation where the high court has to intervene in all these cases related to kind of viable consent, especially of data processing. And especially as you mentioned, because it's not just applicable to the operator, but who they use in which platforms they advertise. Now, are we gonna then gonna go through every campaign on Facebook, Instagram, on YouTube, who are companies?

that are so defined by the data algorithms and the way they advertise and say well they can't use that anymore that's not viable or there has to be an opt-in clause every time they they market to a customer who might be potentially gambling it's

It's a very, very complex discipline that we are looking at and that has to be analyzed. I think that there will be, this will have a ramification of some sort. I just can't kind of put my finger on it just yet.

Martyn (12:21.434)
Yeah, I think it's such a tricky issue. It's definitely above my intellectual level to decide what that should be. Okay, let's leave Skybet there and we're just gonna go for a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to be talking about the related issue of the latest developments with the implementation of the gambling reviews white paper recommendations.

Martyn (12:55.224)
Okay, welcome back to today's iGaming Daily. So Ted, our old friend the white paper and DCMS have started, have recommenced their committee hearings of them about it in Parliament. What's the state of play? Where are we up to with this?

Ted (13:18.109)
Okay, so this was very much a hearing on 2024 proceedings, what got settled, what's going to be implemented and you know, Labour leads with they're applying the £5 limit on slots. The fact that now the deposit checks are going to be reviewed in the upcoming months. So that's going through its test phase and the settlement of the RAT levy. And it was what should have been kind of

quite a straightforward Select Committee hearing on process got kind of turned around, which I quite enjoyed into mud slinging fights between the parties on gambling protections, on the interference of the Labour government and proceedings, and actually whether the objectives of the gambling review have changed.

and it was a very kind of UK affair and I enjoyed it a lot.

Martyn (14:13.126)
Well I did watch some of it and it struck me that after 14 years of government the Conservatives were taking the phrase opposition very literally during this phrase. They were really enjoying the fact that they're not responsible for the decisions that get made anymore so they can just get stuck in with whatever they like to throw at the government.

Ted (14:25.532)
Yeah.

Ted (14:34.055)
Well, I like the, I'd like to welcome kind of Louis French, Shadow Minister for DC, as a conservative party. He's an interesting character to join. What season are we on on the White Paper? Season? Are we awaiting like the grand kind of soprano's ending of...

Martyn (14:39.375)
Yeah.

Martyn (14:51.205)
don't know. Let's call it season six or something. I don't know.

Martyn (15:01.668)
Yeah, well, I think there are fewer interpretations of the soprano's ending than there are of the stuff that's in the white paper, certainly. But I mean, essentially, they were disagreeing about stuff that they agree about, which was really pretty odd. With the exception of, let's leave, Sir Ian Duncan Smith, the long time.

Ted (15:10.118)
You

Very true, very true.

Ted (15:30.075)
Yeah.

Martyn (15:31.066)
gambling reform campaigner to one side, his interventions were a little bit left field at times. But there is some common ground between the three major parties in parliament. What are they actually disagreeing about now?

Ted (15:47.581)
Well, think, okay, I had times I'm to review this stuff and you're right, the political consensus is there to apply the changes. I think it's more kind of the narrative and the overall kind of application of how Labour will progress with applying the changes. One sector is...

with the the ret levy so and the shallow minister louis french views that that it was done too aggressively and it wasn't done considering in consideration of smaller businesses

and smaller businesses connected with the gambling industry too. So it said that all of a sudden, like they're going to have to make an RIT contribution of after 500 pounds when it should have been applied at a threshold of half a million would have been better. And what we're also seeing here is the kind of political, why the political players at the Conservative Party in opposition, which I think you're right to kind of highlight, which is one of the things that they were saying was talking about the impact

on rural constituencies and that Labour just has no accountability for what they care for and the impact on the UK's rural structures that you can put an argument forward for, but there's a lot of culture clash pays coming into the gambling review that I think we saw in this city.

Martyn (17:14.884)
Yeah, and what's Labour's defence?

Ted (17:20.103)
Well, I think Stephanie Peacock always carries the Trump card that at least we're implementing it. And it's not taking four years. you know, that's always going to be their response, I reckon. And it's a strong one considering just how fractures sort of just...

Martyn (17:26.17)
Yeah.

Ted (17:42.352)
how ever changing DCMS was under the Conservative Party and how long it just took us to get here.

Martyn (17:50.616)
Yeah, that's right. I'm sure the Conservatives would say, well, what about Brexit and the pandemic, which kind of took the thing. But you are right. mean, the way the Conservatives, over the period of the total period they were in government, treated that department was ridiculous. The number of changes of minister and so on, that can't have helped this process. So a bit stability would be nice.

Ted (18:08.752)
Yeah.

Ted (18:16.177)
But going back to the political census, mean, look, there are kind of grownups in the room and even higher in Duncan Smith. Yes, he's the kind of headline reformist, but he was saying, like, look, let's just get on with it. And I think that they're now looking, the reformists.

Whether you call them anti-gambling campaigns or not, I think what they're now looking for is they won't guarantee that there's going to be a kind of quick reviews on the changes, especially to online slots and especially to the rent levy to kind of remove inefficiencies. And I think they kind of, they do have a basis to say that there is kind of a strong profile to say, look, if we implement a law, you have to have like ample time to review it. Fine.

I think Labour can live with that. Returning back to a week of activity for UK gaming, I think this goes back to what is really visible at the moment is that I don't think any party has settled down on...

what the advertising restrictions are going to be or what or advertising, you know, full-scale advertising legislation for UK gambling just yet.

Martyn (19:32.356)
Yeah, well, that is the big battleground that the, we'll continue calling them reformists, always come back to, right? Because it's the most visible thing. It's where they want to be seen to win, I guess. And I guess we're to be hearing the threat from the black market, quite a bit during that discussion as well.

Ted (19:41.19)
Yeah.

Ted (19:57.616)
Which I do kind of welcome, especially because, you know, the more regulation you got to start kind of thinking about how that kind of encroaches with the black market. But where I do think kind of the UK is different to witnessing kind of other developments in other countries is that I don't think we're going to push towards.

blanket ban on gambling. However, I don't think that any party will be satisfied with the legislation and advertising. And I think that there is kind of twists and turns here. So even if you look at the coalition of gambling advertising, I think they view kind of now data consent as a parameter that they want to kind of tackle, or they want the pressure kind of regulatory reform or regulatory intervention towards.

and I think that that could become a battleground if Labour let them do so and say look can we kind of reinterpret white paper recommendations or proposals in this manner.

Martyn (20:56.165)
Yeah, so as always when we discuss this subject, I'm going to ask you to do the pointless thing of getting your crystal ball out and tell me how is this going to pan out over the next 12 months? Are we finally going to see everything implemented, do you think?

Ted (21:14.525)
I carry confidence that Labour can do it. I think that they jumped one big hurdle with the red levy and the settlement, at least it is a settlement. That's what I tell our audiences. Advertising is the one that has the much grey area and hurdles for consensus. So I think there will be progress in 2025.

And, but whether it pleases anyone, I doubt it. think there will always be kind of reformist voices in UK gambling. But I think it's, I think that the gambling review is in a better place than the Labour because I Labour has got a better kind of overall vision of DCMS and its priorities and of how that department has been structured and has been kind of re-engineered.

Martyn (22:06.395)
Yeah, I agree with you that they're just more focused. Agree with them or disagree with them across a lot of issues, not just in this department. They appear to have a focus and a willingness to deliver on things rather than just talk about things. So I'm with you on this. think we will see some some steps forward this year. I may disagree with some of them when they when they come into being, but that's part of living in a democracy, right?

Ted (22:20.86)
Mm-hmm.

Martyn (22:36.379)
some things go against you.

Ted (22:38.509)
Well, political times are changing Martin! They tell me that democracy apparently is not that popular these days.

Martyn (22:42.227)
Yeah, well, I don't know. Yeah, I know. That's, yeah, that survey the other week that said young people favor a dictator was staggering. be careful what you wish for, I think is the message there. Anyway, on that note that a dictatorship is heading into the UK imminently, we're going to leave it there for today. So Ted, thank you very much for joining me as always.

Thanks for listening and join us again tomorrow for another edition of iGaming Daily.