iGaming Daily

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Hello everyone and welcome back to SBC Daily podcast, the marketing edition. iGaming Daily is presented by OptiMove, the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming market. And we have yet another special offer for you. OptiMove is offering new clients a free first month when you buy OptiMove. For further information and claim the free month, please go to optimove.com slash SBC. I am Ivana Flynn and I have got two wonderful guests today with me, Alini and Filip.

I'll kindly ask you to introduce yourself and we jump to our topic very quickly. So my name is Aline Oliveira. I'm a head of PPC at Camon Group. I've been working in iGaming for the last three years, but I have over 13 years experience in digital marketing. So my specialty at the moment is PPC, but I also cover SEO and 360 digital marketing in my previous role.

Thank you so much Ivano for the invitation. I'm very glad to be here today to discuss about PPC and SEO strategies. Thank you for joining us. And Filip? Hello, my name is Filip. I'm head of performance for Creators Media. So any paid channel you can think of that I've probably worked on. I have about five years of experience of iGaming and over 10 years in the marketing overall. So yeah, I think it's going to be a wonderful podcast and I always work very closely with SEO. So that's another thing that we can...

Fantastic. I know you both work with SEO because Alini and I worked in common for many years together. And Filip, I know your wife is a massive, massive SEO name and I have the pleasure to know her. So I'm pretty sure you breathe on the latest. And today we are going to be discussing PPC and SEO, how we can work together better, where is the perfect balance and where the cannibalization start, how to spot it, how to avoid it. We're going to be talking on anything that can help you balance your media budgets better.

So first question, how important is PPC and which markets you would absolutely recommend to have PPC budget and PPC presence? I can start with that if you want. I think with PPC, because you can see the results pretty much straight away, it's one of the best and the easiest tools to have within your marketing arsenal. And it works really well with SEO and other channels as well. When I was trying to explain PPC, it's always

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bottom of the funnel and mid funnel as well because of the PMAX. Because anybody looking for a brand, I always say you have to do a branding campaign. It will catch all the customers who are actually Googling you. So not having a search campaign, you risk losing that space to your competitor or basically someone else. Because you probably are ranking organically for your name, but with the sponsored links at the top, there is a risk that you might lose that place. So I'll say any market, anywhere you can.

have a license on where you can advertise, use PPC. I agree. mean, in Sweden, we see four to five links above us. So in the end, we are not position one in SEO for brand. are position five, six. Alini, what's your take on this and which markets do you absolutely love and which markets absolutely no no for PPC? I completely agree with Filip and yourself, Ivana. I believe PPC is a must in any sort of strategy mix, marketing mix. So I don't think there's any market that

we shouldn't go for PPC. think it's an essential part of any digital strategy, especially for gaming. That is a highly competitive industry. Of course, they're more regulated with more regulations, certain markets, so it's more challenging. Other markets, I would say it's easier to run PPC. But as Philippe said, it's both of the fun. Also, everyone that most of the users that are already ready to bat or to play.

This is the tool that they go for and search and explore different offers, different USPs. So I think it's very important for any brand to ensure that they have the presence on top keywords as well on the brand keyword to protect their brands from competition to steal their space on the search engines. And this is where I want to go. It's the stealing of the brand. Where do you stand on this? I always, as an SEO, find it very weird that you are able to beat on your competitor.

In Sweden, it's a wild wild west. all know we all bid on each other. We all get frustrated. How do you feel about it? Is there a way to find like a sweet spot? How much to pretend your brand and where is better to dial down because your CPA is going crazy? How do you, how do you find that perfect spot Alini? Well, we monitor this very closely. And of course there is cannibalization between PPC and SEO. We have lived that in our daily jobs. Ivana, you remember this?

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So I think the important thing here is to test and to monitor properly this sort of overlap between PPC and SEO. I think one thing to highlight here is that most of the search in our industry, and I think not only in our industry, most of the industry, it's competitive keywords. I asked Google release last week a statistic that...

in average about 65 to 67 % of total search queries is brand keywords. So it's a must to beat on competitive keywords because otherwise we will be losing a big chunk of the search related keywords in our industry. But having said that, of course we need to find a balance because if we go too aggressive, especially in terms of brand protection, you might be just...

stealing some of the clicks that would naturally go to SEO. And I think smart bidding does a pretty good job. We have done a task in the past, which we push impression share on brand to a very high level, almost 90%. And we saw that it was not very effective. So I think when we go for other types of smart bidding, such as target CPA or target ROAS, this tends to be more effective.

So I would say that the algorithm is able to read users that have a higher intention and select naturally users that should receive a click from the PPC and the ones that perhaps would naturally go to SEO, the ads are not showing. So I believe that this is the type of strategy that works best for brand protection. And at the same time, when we run this sort of task that goes a little bit more aggressive on brand protection, higher impression share on PPC to see what is the impact

on SEO and then of course with a lot of testing, you will find a sweet spot. Yes, Aline loves testing. I can confirm this, we work together, but I think you're one of a kind because lots of PPCs don't think of SEO. I think your experience across channels gives you a competitive edge. Where do you stand, Filip? Do you have the same opinion here or would you go more aggressive, less aggressive, not cover them at all? So I love testing. Testing is what you do with performance marketing, whether that's PPC or any other channel.

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So you have to test what works for one operator might not work for the other. Then you can use, because everyone has, let's say in UK, most of the operators will have similar slot games and they might advertise those slot games. you you advertise with other competitors and there's just no way around it. So, you you just have to be very competitive and make sure that you kind of leave a bit of a profit margin for yourself. But with SEO, it works pretty well.

So making sure that you have that communication with your SEO team, it will play a big part. So by, and I've tested that in the past, by using ads on PPC, your SEO will grow as well. So you can see that in rankings, you can see that there's more traffic flowing. And if customer is engaging with you, your SEO rank will go up as well. As well, we know through the latest Google leaks that brand is a thing. So I think that's why branded keywords work so well.

Sorry, Filip, did I jump into something? You can finish your sentence. I'm very sorry for being rude. No, it's fine. I was going to say it's an ecosystem. So if you think of like holistic approach to marketing of 360, marketing approach, you have to connect every single channel to work together. And then usually you're going to have way better results than just focusing or being siloed into just one channel. I absolutely agree. And I see I, chosen really, really good speakers today for my points as well.

I believe that PPC is one of the channels that can help you get data when you're entering a new market. mean, SEO takes time, but if you work with your PPC, PPC is the one that goes there and gets your data. Am I right Alina? And how do you do this? How do you set up your campaigns to make sure that you bring data that rest of the channels, not just SEO can use for a winning strategy? Of course. I think there is something very powerful on PPC that is called Broadmatch.

So I think for any sort of entry strategy on VPC, it's a must. Of course, we're careful because it can go really crazy and capture a lot of irrelevant searches, but I think it's a very powerful tool for discovery. So here is, think, I would say it's the main point to allow your account when you enter a new market to learn as much as possible to capture this sort of data.

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to do a lot of cleanup as a follow-up as well. And in that sense, you might even see what sort of keyword is trendy or not. And also in terms of auctioning sides, you can also understand what are the most aggressive competitors and how they, I would say, split their strategy in terms of generic and brand. So it's very interesting to have this sort of initial insight and share across all the channels.

to kind of calibrate the marketing mix. Yes, it's always good to have data and without data it's very difficult to build strategy. Filip, do you use this as well? And if yes, can you share some maybe some study that you've done or any experience so we can put a picture to a sound really because not everybody listening to this, me included, is PPC expert. Exactly. I think that the learning part is the key. It's a key term in there by entering any market with PPC or any other.

channel. It will help you learn about the market and it might find you gaps that your team might not have thought of and that way you can create content for SEO that will actually match that gap and you can start ranking for it organically as well. So it's great for finding gaps that you didn't think of and I would always do a broad campaign and I'll do some local campaigns as well. So let's say you go into UK, you could focus on specific cities as well.

And you'll find that you have different learnings in different cities on how people operate and what people are actually playing and where they click and what do they actually like. Because if you think of every market, every market is slightly different. And some markets like it very local in terms of the language and some just don't care. So for example, London is very international and you can be very universal and generic. But if you go up north, let's say Scotland, they want to be more localized.

probably same thing goes for France or Italy and Germany for that example as well. So yeah, you can learn a lot from PPC and then you can reuse that for your SEO efforts for content. That's interesting. I I never really worked with PPC in UK. I ran a company myself in Denmark when I was in Betten. But Alini, is this learning same for other markets than UK? Can you use it in Sweden? Maybe it's different for Stockholm than other cities or can you use it in Germany? I know you have got both licenses, so.

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Yeah, think it's localization is a key point. you don't, think where we would say we were more sharp in terms of ensure that we are absolutely talking, speaking the same language as the locals. It was Ontario. This was an essential point for our strategy when we enter Ontario, because as much as we have a team that they're all English speakers,

It's a completely different market from the European market. So we work very closely with local consultants to provide the sort of language, understand the difference in each specific areas, even though it's a small area, but there are, I would say, different sorts of way that people search and speak as well. So I think this was essential for us entering the market and of course to adapt along the way. So what Philippe says,

in terms of getting insight from how people search in different areas, it's completely irrelevant. But you might get lost as well if you go too granular. So it's important as well to always keep a step back as a broad view and understand what it's valid. Because I would say it's smart bidding does a lot of this job for you in terms of adaptation and ensure that you're visible at the most relevant areas. So I would say you need to balance out between

what it's relevant locally and also always keep the 360 view on what it's working for the entire market. And for someone who is not a PPC expert here, can you explain me very shortly what is smart bidding? Because I use it few times and I'm a little bit lost. Of course. So smart bidding is basically a few types of bidding strategy available at Google Ads and actually Bing Ads as well. So it's the sort of strategy that

the algorithm is supposed to be doing mainly the job. So it's good on one side because it's supposed to help you in terms of this granularity I told you about. We don't need to do bid adjustments for hours. We know that most of the people search after working hours. So on a manual bidding, we will have to probably do some sort of bid adjustment for those hours that are more relevant when we work with smart bidding that I just mentioned, target CPA.

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and also tcpa and tc-roas are the most relevant ones. In this sort of strategy, we don't need to make those manual adjustments. So the smart bidding takes care of this relevancy within the lines and make adjustments to what is the most relevant type of user, what are the most relevant hours, and so on.

that's wonderful. Did I explain correctly, Do you manage to thank you. I'm jealous right now because Google doesn't help us, doesn't help SEO. It's always love, distance, the open bar. So am I right to say that when you are entering new market or when you're struggling in the market, Google is even happy to provide you with some data. Like those are your main competitors look there or Google is sharing some data, right? Like not for SEO, but you get some help from Google. So again, it's the information that SEOs don't get yet you can share and help.

I mean, I don't know how Philippe does. On our case, we have certain tools that can provide insights. So we have keyword planners, we have other pay tools such as SMRush, HREF, that is the same for SEO that we tend to get quite a lot of insights from there. Also looking at what competitors are already currently doing in each market. But of course, we work very closely with our account management team at Google.

And most of the time they tend to provide us very comprehensive insights about how each market works. And this is, I would say quite helpful, especially when we are entering new markets. This is fantastic. And this is helpful for all of the channels. So PPC is basically a channel everybody should invest in and should think of as a must when creating their digital team. mean, especially if you get inside Google data that we don't get from SEO and we're just guessing.

So this is absolutely a value to PPC that maybe a lot of people didn't think of. Aline, I have a specific question for you because you're Brazilian. How does PPC Brazil gaming works in Brazil? I mean, I know you don't cover that market, but you know, is it like more local or is it more whole country or how does it work? I'm sure you, because Brazil is becoming its spot, right? Everybody's looking into Brazil. So I'm sure this is information they all would like to know.

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Of course. Well, as you say, I never worked directly with Brazil, but I follow the news and I follow what's happening and a lot has been happening this year in terms of regulation back and forth. But I feel that things are moving to the right direction in terms of regulating gambling and sports betting. One of the interesting insights from Brazil is that it's one of the few countries that sports betting it has much

volume compared to casino and slots. So I think it's part of our nature as Brazilians that we love football, we love sports, it's part of our daily life. So it doesn't come as a surprise to me, but in terms of search volumes, it's massive how sports betting is growing massively in these recent years. So I think it's an opportunity.

for any brand that wants volume and has the right strategy because even though it's very big country, I think that's a few challenges as well. One thing is for sure that sports batting is the biggest product at the moment. There are a few regulations still to be confirmed, but it seems like that...

there will be more and more openness to this sort of brands and companies to establish their operations in Brazil. And of course, it's test and learn because every market has a different dynamics, right? So it's finding the right sorts of cost for acquisition for the user value that it's been established in Brazil. But I think this will eventually grow.

So it's a very early stage in this market and eventually it will grow and it will get more mature and the user value hopefully will also continue to grow as an opportunity for the gambling companies. Fantastic. Filip, which outside of UK market would you recommend to look in from PPC perspective? I'm guessing you're Polish, right? It's US, of course, US. So do you have experience there? Would you recommend us to go there and think of PPC as the one that can help?

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Definitely. The only thing you have to look out for, not every state, you can actually advertise gambling and then you have to have a license for each state that you want to enter. So that's the only thing that you're going to have to look for. But once you apply for your license, either for Google, Meta, whatever channel you want to pick, and you get approved, you have to get approved first before you advertise. And I've seen many sportsbooks and many operators starting advertising without the approval and they get banned and then it's harder to get them back on track.

But I think the point on the sports book, usually as an operator, you have a sports book and then you have your casino. Using sports book as a crossover for players, it's a great idea. And especially in the countries where different sports are very popular. So you can advertise based on the teams and based on interest of those teams and then try to convert them on the platform to go to casinos and get people from casinos to sports books. So by having more platforms in your roster,

I think that's a great idea to have. And with PPC, you can be very granular and you can be very broad as well. And that allows you to target different kinds of people who will attract to your sports books and then move on to other parts of business. Fantastic. Thank you so, so much. And sadly we're out of time. I told you 20 minutes go very, very fast. It was amazing. I always...

I'm always amazed to talk to Alini. She's my go-to information. I follow her on LinkedIn. So if you don't, I highly recommend you do. She shares lots of important information on PPC. So just to wrap up, make sure you use PPC and SEO in balance, test, test, test, and use PPC for any market research because they can bring data that SEOs will never get their hands on. Thank you so much both for coming, for sharing, and I wish you a beautiful day. Bye. Thank you so much Ivana. It was a pleasure. Thank you, Filip. Thank you, Alini.