iGaming Daily

Ted (00:02.264)
The Kansaspiel Autoriteit, the gambling authority of the Netherlands, has launched a pilot scheme offering a free subscription to Gamban for Dutch users. The pilot highlights Gamban's growing significance as a gambling block solution and mechanism across multiple European markets, including recent partnerships with Finland's Vicus and Norweig Norse Tipping. Today on iGaming Daily, we provide Kalfe's insights into the ongoing development of Gamban as the most comprehensive

gambling block solution covering all technology platforms and software systems. Is Gamban reflective of innovation in private enterprise and how it can improve and harmonize regulatory protections for individual markets? iGaming Daily is brought to you by OptiMove, the number one marketing and CRM solution for the global gambling sector. I'm Ted Memwear and joining me today we have Jack Simmons, co-founder of Gamban. Jack, how are doing?

Jack (00:59.182)
Very well, thanks Ted, thanks for having me on.

Ted (01:00.54)
Okay, so I want to let's begin by bringing kind of our audience up to date with Gamban and let's begin with your kind of product journey and if you can at best kind of summarize Gamban from kind of its original concept through to its launch, its testing and what it offers today.

Jack (01:28.12)
So, Gamban's changed a lot over the last decade. Ultimately, Gamban is a layer of friction or a barrier between the urge to gamble and gambling. When I started it in 2015, it was really because I felt that the ability to gamble was just too easy, it's too accessible.

And so I needed something that would just sort of, you know, hold me up. And so over the years, GAMBAN's got a lot better, a lot more effective, and we've seen additional layers of friction. So self-exclusion schemes around the world, such as GAMSTOP in the UK, and bank blocking as well as another tool. And so what we found

to be a really effective way for people to stop when they find it difficult to stop is to layer up these barriers to provide more friction.

Ted (02:38.552)
And okay, from kind of your founders insight and how did you start off kind of approaching the issue or the problem of actually self exclusion, being, you know, a comprehensive self exclusion and to create a blocking device across all systems and all technologies. I mean, how big a challenge is that?

Jack (03:07.394)
Very, mean, you know, it's one of those things that if you listen to what everyone says before you start something, you'll never do it. I was aware when we started that there were different challenges on different operating systems. And, you know, it's one of those things, you have to work within the confines and the restraints of the operating systems and what they allow you to do.

You also have to work around sort of that difficult psychological concept of someone's better self and then that sort of part of the person wants to sort of undo what they did before. And so you've got those two dynamics working against each other within operating systems that kind of, you So we make we make GAMBAN as difficult to uninstall as possible and we aren't afraid to.

Ted (03:45.367)
sure.

Jack (04:04.142)
throw away what we've done and start again if there's a better way of doing what we want to do, which is just to keep people away from gambling when they themselves want to.

Ted (04:15.792)
And I think this is what such an interesting kind of proposal or mission for Gamban and talking about kind of like that lived experience of working towards what, you know, working with that user, you know, taking the perspective of they lived in the experience, but actually building a technology asset out of it.

Jack (04:45.004)
Yeah, so I I experienced harm from gambling myself and I knew lots of other people who did and my co-founder Matt has had direct experience of gambling harm. And so, you know, we've got that, but we also work really closely with other people who are using the product on an ongoing basis. So there's that kind of, know, I think we're very close to the, we're very close to the problem.

We're very familiar with it. That's not to say that the idea, when people talk about problem gamblers, it's just like a homogenous group of people. But actually what we found is that there are sort of great differences between people and what drives them to gamble. For example, what I needed from gambling was almost like a trance-like meditative state that I got, particularly from slots.

Whereas I know that a lot of other people want that sort of Russian excitement and adrenaline and those are two different things. Then what I found is that my gambling over time changed. So I was perhaps more of a spender rather than a binger. And then I became more of a jackpot gambler once I'd won a, once I had a taste of a large win. And so I think, you know, what brings people to use Gamban is always

they're always gonna be sort of in the losing cycle. The helplessness and the despair is always gonna be there. The question is, is how far into the abyss do people have to fall before taking some kind of tool or tools and seeking support? For me, fortunately, it wasn't, I didn't have to hit rock bottom. I hit sort of, know, several points where I knew I had to stop. And for other people,

you know, they will have to unfortunately see the consequences of, you know, of what happens if gambling is left unchecked. And so really our mission is just to make it more and more accessible earlier on to people who need it.

Ted (07:00.246)
Mm-hmm. And I want to take you up on those understanding those those triggers or those kind of compulsions that lead people to gamble and Now, you know you're building a software or an app that that blocks people from accessing any type of engagement with gambling but how How do those kind of triggers impact people one, you know having that urge to?

to gamble, especially if they are high risk. How do you kind of control those elements?

Jack (07:33.87)
Mmm.

Jack (07:38.85)
I guess that's where support and talking, I mean, in the UK, we've got this joined up approach called Talk Van Stop. And the idea is that you put these kind of blocks in place and they'll hold you, they're kind of like, I don't wanna say like putting a plaster over a wound, cause it's slightly more than that. But it's about creating space and then using that space to either seek help,

Ted (07:53.037)
Mm-hmm.

Jack (08:08.494)
seek some form of treatment, or perhaps look at things that can fill the void that gambling has left, which is no easy feat. I think what we often talk about is, is this kind of, you know, similar to the heat triangle of fire, fuel and oxygen to create a fire, we talk about time access and money. So, you know, in the case of gambling, often money will be depleted. Often,

we can handle access with self-exclusion schemes and the blocking software. So really it's a case of like, how do you fill that time? And that is such an important piece. I don't have the answers to that. I think there are some interesting approaches that can be taken to time. But how do you fill the void that gambling leaves? It's such a exciting, powerful.

feeling when you're in your three, you know.

Ted (09:05.964)
Yeah, No, it's especially kind of in a modern society where, you know, even reading the reports that came out last week, it's that these triggers aren't just set to gambling. They're in online games, in online environments, they're even in kind of an online shopping where we kind of see more kind of gamified models. It's actually how do you control, you know, how, I think this is what makes Gambam very interesting because it's actually such a kind of

Jack (09:34.478)
and

Ted (09:36.056)
in the moment in reactive app to how people are living. Yeah.

Jack (09:40.384)
Absolutely. On that point, we have found that, you know, despite regulatory definitions of what constitutes gambling, we found that this convergence of gaming, of highly leveraged trading of crypto currencies, things like this, that are kind of, you know, we're in a bit of a Wild West situation in terms of who regulates what and what is gambling. And, you know, it's

difficult to sort of pinpoint what those kind of, I suppose like how powerful the stimulus is and how much it's got in common with gambling. So what we do on Gamban, it's a bit of a double-edged sword, we do block crypto and we do block leverage trading and we block apps that allow you to gamble with skins as a form of currency, so in-app items.

Ted (10:29.848)
Mm-hmm.

Jack (10:38.638)
I wouldn't say that this is a major sort of part of the sort of, you know, the products that are highly stimulating for us. mean, it is slots, you know, 75 % of people using Gamban is driven by slots and casino with about 25 % on sports betting. The rest of the stuff, I would...

I would say it's probably because it's been difficult to communicate the fact that we do block this additional stuff and that people are still experiencing harm or some people are experiencing harm. But yeah, so many things now. You know, I've got a real thing around Deliveroo, Just Eat and all these, you know, I had to move, I didn't have to move house. I moved house, I moved somewhere where there is nothing really takeaway wise and

Ted (11:23.709)
Yeah.

Jack (11:32.354)
You know, that for me is a sort of an element of friction in stopping a problem. But previously I was living in a city and my God, my phone was directly linked to my diet. And, you know, I started GAMBAN with the philosophy that with great power comes great responsibility. You've got this thing in your hands that can do so many different

convenient tasks, but also can do a lot of damage. And so, you I just wanted to be able to continue using the tech I loved and I needed without having to make even greater sacrifices.

Ted (12:15.0)
So I want to bring you back to the development of Gamban and your view as a stakeholder in the intervention and gambling here. But when you look at current self-exclusion schemes, whether it be in the UK or Spain and other countries, what are the blind sides in these systems that are forced onto the customer, forced onto the market?

Jack (12:44.494)
So ultimately, I mean, think self-exclusion schemes are an absolutely essential part of the mix. One of the inherent problems with self-exclusion schemes is they require opt-in from the regulator sector. And one of the blind spots is the black market. Now, that is something that can be, if you like,

protected by other barriers, so bank blocking, if that's available in any jurisdiction, and blocking software like Gamban. I think different self-exclusion schemes operate, as I understand, slightly differently. I'm not an expert on exactly how they work, but in terms of matching people up and making sure that it's a direct match, I think it's, since 2018, when

I think it was 2018 when Gamstop launched in the UK. What I found and what I found from others who were using different layers of blocks and barriers in their self-exclusion, what I found was, if you're determined enough, you'll find a way, you'll find a way to circumvent. It could take time. For me, it took about two hours and bear in mind, I sort of,

I know how to get around these things because I've sort of grown up in with this. A lot of people just have a barrier or two barriers or three and, you know, they just take the view, well, I can't access gambling, so it's fine. But by the time I was able to gamble, I was on dodgy platforms, you not regulated. I would have had to use crypto in order to, and you if I won, I wasn't going to get paid.

Ted (14:31.552)
Yeah.

Jack (14:40.27)
What I found with the self-exclusion schemes is they work really well, but they work even better when they're layered up with other barriers.

Ted (14:50.666)
Yeah, and let's reflect on that as a vulnerable customer who then accesses unlicensed websites. First of all, mean, because this is a huge point concern for the industry now and for the regulators. what do these casinos offer? What do these gaming sites offer? And just how easy are they to access?

How can they circumvent every rule and how do you protect against that? mean, how do you protect against this kind of cowboy facet within our element or our industry?

Jack (15:34.094)
I mean, from a player perspective, they're almost indistinguishable. I'd say one area that may be a bit of a sign is, because no one really looks at the footer to see where the site is regulated, but often the quality of the games. So if you're playing slots, you'll find more generic fairy tale type.

Ted (15:50.2)
Mm-hmm.

Jack (16:01.61)
titles, whereas if you're playing on regulated platforms, seemingly, and this might just be a coincidence from what I've seen, but you tend to see some of the, like the, I don't know what they call them, the A rated, the sort of, you know, Marvel DC kind of licensed games. But I mean, I've played on these black market sites before intentionally and unintentionally unintentionally, because I wasn't sure if they were regulated or not.

Ted (16:26.424)
Mm.

Jack (16:31.192)
particularly when I was living in Norway and I wasn't even sure what was regulated when I was, this is way before Gamban and I just, didn't know what the legal situation was. And then unintentionally, sorry, intentionally when you've self excluded yourself from these gambling sites and some of them will market themselves to

If you're in the UK, there's a there's a really I don't want to sort of, you know, signpost anyone to black market sites. There's one casino that You know, it's mascot is a is a British bulldog wearing a Union Jack vest It's regulated in Curacao. So but it's clearly it's targeted to UK players They've masked their their transaction What would normally come under the

Ted (17:27.832)
Mm-hmm.

Jack (17:29.952)
Merchant Code 7995, think, which is casino and gambling. It's sort of listed as a marketing services company. And so, you know, those are two different ways that you would bypass. I mean, I just plucked that out of the air, but that site would be quite an easy site to abscond to if you're not able to play on a regulated platform. And if you're signed up to a self-exclusion scheme and you've managed to bypass blocking software.

So, unfortunately there are still gaps in the net, so to speak.

Ted (18:06.464)
Yeah, yeah. So let's move on to, let's discuss your partnership with KSI, the Dutch Gambling Authority, and how was this kind of collaboration formed, and what are your ambitions kind of working together on this pilot?

Jack (18:29.602)
Yeah, so it's brilliant that we've been able to get to this point with the KSA. I think, so the idea of Gamban is a product that there is a cost attached to making Gamban available. So to make Gamban available at no cost to the end user is brilliant. It's exactly what we want to be doing. And we do this now,

Ted (18:48.248)
Mm-hmm.

Jack (18:59.65)
just in the Netherlands, but also in Ohio with Timeout Ohio, with Finland, with Vaikouse, in the UK as a funded project in collaboration with Gamblerware, Gamcare and Gamstop, and in other jurisdictions as well. So we're really keen on working with regulators, governments.

monopolies, top level organizations that want to protect populations at large. And I think for us, we've worked a little bit in the past with, we still offer Gamban through some operators, but what we've found is that there is a understandable conflict of interest between

industry and what we're offering. Whereas with regulators, it's not quite as much of a conflict. think what we found is there's, we found that our values align, we found that, you know, the sustainability is a factor that we can both appreciate and understand. And

Ted (20:08.578)
too.

Jack (20:24.95)
I think there are lots and lots of improvements that we can make and we invest a lot of time and effort and money into improving the ways in which we can make Gamban accessible earlier on in that sort of harm continuum. And, you know, so we've just started with the KSA and I'm just really pleased that it's...

that it's gone live. I think some of these arrangements that we've got with regulators do just take time. It takes time because, you know, either a self-exclusion scheme needs to be established first, some regulators choose to lead with blocking software and then sort of put a self-exclusion scheme around it. But what we're finding is that the progressive regulators are

recognizing that tools are needed and if they embrace them, it's just a sign of how progressive and forward thinking they are.

Ted (21:32.696)
How are you helping the regulator to of pinpoint or signpost the high risk players to Gamban as kind of that extra layer that's added onto the set of solution systems such as crux and such as I think, I can't remember what the name it, but yes, so yeah.

Jack (21:55.694)
Yeah, we're doing some UI UX work on journey mapping and how to, as I say, how to make it more accessible. These things are always kind of a bit of a trial and error process. And we found that some regulators just want to do it the way that, you know,

they envisage it from the outset and then sort of iterate based on that. And others are quite happy to be sort of led by what's working with other organizations. And so I think one of the things that's really helping us is we're learning from, in different jurisdictions, we're learning lessons that can very much be cross applied to other regulators and that's of reducing the shortcuts. In terms of more industry participation.

with the regulators, that's something that we really want to see. I think this is really good way to get industry to communicate, I think, a little bit more with the regulator in terms of the tools that are on offer. To put it bluntly, from our perspective, we've fought a fight over, I'd say probably about eight years or so, of...

trying to get gambling operators to pay for their own customers to not be able to gamble on their platforms, which is a bit of a tall ask, by which I mean, if they're buying licenses, and those licenses can be sort of, you for five years, and they're saying, we're never going to see this player again, and it's going to have a price tag attached to it, you can see that, you know, it's quite, quite

likely that will have been given the cold shoulder time after time. perhaps it's a better strategy to be working with regulators to make these tools available at no cost in these jurisdictions. And then we can work with industry where it's sort of, you know, where I suppose it's most convenient. That's where players are going to be, obviously. And the more that we can do to make it available and accessible, the better. I mean, one other thing that I thought was quite

Jack (24:19.242)
interesting and this this was volunteered if you like as an idea by by industry i can't remember which operator but they said they really want to see inside their platform when people are playing they really want to see a sort of you know like those green illuminated exit signs in case of fire that way they want to see that kind of sign posting and i thought that was quite interesting like

Ted (24:41.41)
Thank

Jack (24:47.662)
Carry on playing, enjoy yourself, but know that if things get out of hand, this is where you go. And at the moment, think, well, certainly over the last 10 years, I think things have got probably more confusing, having started off at an already confusing standpoint in terms of all the tools, all the signposting, all the way to go. So, you know, making it easier for people at a time that is, you know, often overwhelmingly...

difficult, emotional, you know, I think that's a very important mission.

Ted (25:27.126)
Okay, so I'm just coming down to my final two questions and I actually have to pre-write one of them because actually, I want to kind of get your perspective as an engineer, a technology stakeholder in problem gambling, but also from kind of your lived experience. What is kind of missing in the overall kind of protection debate on players? And also on the of the policy front of

how should we handle the highest risk of the most vulnerable customers within markets? So your take on that, I what is kind of true protection for the highest risk individual?

Jack (26:13.144)
Okay, that's a big question.

Ted (26:16.312)
Yes.

Jack (26:17.868)
Let's start with, we tend to measure harm in time spent and money spent. There's another metric that's quite difficult to measure and that's dependence. How much people need gambling, what it's representing. I don't know how you make use of that, but I would suggest that that is a more qualitative...

measure and something that really needs to be factored in into the mix. Clearly these in-play analytics tools have a role to play in detecting. It's then a case of what do you do once you've detected harmful activity.

I talk again and again like a broken record about the importance of layering protection, of creating friction. I think this concept of friction is very important.

Friction to play. I I haven't seen many of these casinos that don't require you to actually set up an account recently, but it's so easy. You you just pick up a phone and you're playing in minutes. So creating friction that stops you from being able to play in minutes, I think is an important part of that. And then there's that wider piece around...

around, you know, filling time. I think the thing about gambling is, especially online gambling, and we could talk about offline as well, but online gambling has now, I can think of three effective barriers to gambling online. Now, if you could apply those same tools to things like alcoholism,

Jack (28:25.262)
even pornography or any other vices, then that would be extremely helpful for those other, I don't know what you call them, pastimes, activities. So I think gambling does have a lot of safety mechanisms to protect against it once that harm is in play.

Ted (28:41.048)
you

Jack (28:54.924)
If you can bring these things forward and avoid that harm altogether, well, that would be a lot better. It would be a lot better for people, for society, for health. It would be a lot better for the industry as well. Not necessarily immediately and not necessarily in terms of short-term profit, but in terms of removing the disdain and the negativity and the just about tolerance for the sector, I think that would be

You know, and there is another, a more difficult thing to tackle. I don't know how you tackle this either, but the idea that the industry is only as respectable and responsible as its least responsible and respected, operator or player. You know, I see,

operators, affiliates rather, trying to entice people who have self-excluded by targeting self-excluded customers. Casinos not on Gamban, casinos not with Gamstop. There's a lot of barrel scraping. know, the moral low ground is quite crowded in this space. And I know that it's a profitable thing. I understand this from two degrees, I believe, of separation to these affiliates. I understand that

Ted (30:02.946)
Mm-hmm.

Ted (30:14.016)
Absolutely, yeah.

Jack (30:25.836)
You know, they're making money out of it, but they're also getting validated by acquiring organizations, larger operators and affiliates, validating that kind of activity and sanctioning it by, you know, by buying them, swallowing them up. And I'd like to see a bit more responsibility taken in the sector. know, there's a lot of short-termism. Maybe that's also...

Ted (30:45.186)
Bye.

Jack (30:55.614)
sign of the times in terms of know lots of regulatory change but it's it it there's a lot of you know just the other day I got a call asking me all about my gambling as if it was a helpful call to understand you know what how you know it kind of disguises a survey and it ended up with well here are all the bonuses I can offer you go to this site

and I'll give you that, you know, and I just.

Even when I said I'm on Gamstop and I have Gamban, they said, well, that's exactly why we're recommending this site, because it's not regulated in the UK. And that was pitched as a benefit. So.

Ted (31:49.014)
Yeah, I mean it just shows we got such a long road to progress on and Jack, thanks so much for kind of your point, your kind of reflections and thoughts on what is an incredibly important issue for the industry to get right and I think you guys do a great job at Gamban. So thanks for coming in and discussing all developments.

Jack (32:09.358)
Mm.

Thanks, appreciate that.

Ted (32:19.094)
Okay. I'll tend them with this is being our gaming daily. Thanks for tuning in.