iGaming Daily

Andrew McCarron (00:00.238)
Online casino legislation may have stagnated this year, but the U .S. online casino and lottery industries are anything but passive. The market continues to grow with new entrants coming into states like New Jersey and Michigan, and operators starting to recognize the potential of iLottery in addition to iGaming. On today's episode of iGaming Daily, we'll speak with GreenTube Director of Global Sales and Key Account Management Marcus Antle about how that market is growing. The unavoidable cannibalization debate.

and what he sees as the latest developments in North America. Just a reminder, iGaming Daily is presented by OptiMove, the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming market, 56 % of the EGR Power 50 personalized player experiences with OptiMove. And we've still got that special offer going, so be sure to check out the link in the description below for how to get a first free month with OptiMove. I'm Jessica Wellman, editor of SBC Americas, and Marcus, I introduced you in the intro, but for those...

who don't know much about you. I'd love to hear a little bit about your background, particularly because people in our industry tend to jump around a bit, but you are, you're born and bred GreenTube basically, right? You've been very loyal to this company for a very long time. That's true. First of all, thanks a lot for having me. It's a pleasure to be part of this podcast. Yes, it's true. I'm with GreenTube for 13 years now. I started right after university.

So I'm now more part of the furniture that they will put from one office to the other. No, but it's jokes aside, it has been a great time for me. GreenTube gave me a lot of opportunities to grow myself throughout my career. I started actually as an intern in sales and got then several opportunities, as I said, to grow. I worked in an omnichannel product for an omnichannel product for GreenTube.

a very interesting thing that I might also come back to throughout the podcast. And then since five years, actually, I took over the global sales department and thriving growth together with my team in all kinds of markets. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to your insights too, for those who listen to the pod.

Andrew McCarron (02:16.078)
I'm always excited to hear when people know the North American market, but can also kind of contrast it with what other markets are doing, because that's certainly not my strong suit. I'd love to just dive right in with some news that we, you know, I think is kind of one of the bigger stories of the month out of online casino here in the United States. We kind of got our first glimpse at operator data in New Jersey.

I don't know if you guys have kind of your intel and sense of market share, but at least for us media, it was interesting to see exactly how the revenue numbers were breaking down. You know, did you, were you excited to see those numbers? Were there anything surprising in those for your team? So actually, even GreenTube is now not in the US for the full time that the markets are available. We've had solid 11 years of online casino.

cross -gaming revenue data from New Jersey. It was one of the first US online casino markets to pass the legislation and go live in 2013 along with Delaware and Nevada, which is poker only. The numbers are incredible, to be honest, are quite impressive, also in terms of growth, as you said at the beginning in the introduction. We can see a steady growth. New Jersey in the calendar year of 2023,

was at 1 .8 billion with a year -on -year growth rate of 15 .9%. So yeah, I think you have to be impressed with the steady growth rate over the last 11 years. And coming to surprises, I would say yes and no, no and yes. It's no surprise that the New Jersey online casino market

has produced such a such a GDR and year -on -year growth rates as the economical potential of New Jersey in terms of population, nominal and per capita GDP provided a foundation for its success. Besides that, land -based gaming is also quite present in New Jersey for quite some time and I am sure that online benefited from this as well. So that was not a surprise.

Andrew McCarron (04:39.566)
to me. What is surprising is that New Jersey may increase its tax rate as there are current debates going on for online casino and sports betting to 30%. Current rate is 17 .5, which is of course a bummer for us as a supplier, but also for the operators. Not so much for the state itself.

Yeah, let's see if this is going to be pushed through. But it should not have a huge impact in tax rates like 30%. This is not uncommon in some European markets where we peak as well. So do you, to kind of have a follow up to that. What's interesting to me about New Jersey is that,

while other states have seen people exit the market and it seems like there can only be, at least on the sports betting side, so many operators in the state. New Jersey has dozens of operators. You know, Ontario and maybe Michigan are the only other ones I can think of. How much does the tax rate change potentially impact the diversity of operators in the market? That's a very good question, a good point. I think it could have a

significant impact because already now, let's say the bottom percentage of market share is heavily fought for. So we see 25 individual online casino brands at the moment in New Jersey and of those 25 tier one operators like DraftKings, Golden Nuggets, BetMGM and Fandl together.

own 71 .3 % of the TGR, which means that tier two operators, Caesars at 8%, Hardrock at 4%, Petrivers at 3 .5 % make a TGR of 15 .5%. So what's left is 13 .2 % of TGR that the rest of the operators are fighting for. And I think in the long run, this will be difficult. This will be difficult to be lucrative.

Andrew McCarron (06:58.83)
It can work with a conversion of land -based and online somehow because there are some land -based operators under those brands as well. But of course, if the cost increases and the revenue to get is not that much, it's going to be a challenge. You have these precise numbers for New Jersey. I'm curious, what's your feel for Michigan in terms of the market? Just because with...

tribes being a big part of it and the fact that they don't necessarily have to report the same things that the three commercial casinos do. Do you think that the impact of tribes and their online casino partners is maybe under -reported in that state? Well, similar like in New Jersey, but less big in terms of number of operators is Michigan. Also there we have 15 individual online casino brands.

Of those 15, again, the tier one operators make overall GGR of 75 .4 % in market share and tier two operators comprise GGR of 13%. So what's left there is 11 .6%. Even less. Oh wow. Which leaves seven online casino operators fighting for this 11 .6%.

Out of these seven, our online casino brands are tribal with a combined GGR market share of 6 .2.

Andrew McCarron (08:34.606)
I think it's no matter if commercial tribal online casino, it's tricky to compete against these giants that are coming from sports betting, from fantasy sports that have this huge liquidity that they can pump into the markets. Yeah, it's a challenge. I don't say it's impossible, but it's definitely not easier. Yeah.

You've mentioned land base a couple of times and kind of the synergy between the two of them. And you were around in 2013 when we passed these laws in New Jersey and there was a bit of a cannibalization debate. And then for 10 years, there kind of wasn't. And now it seems like it's this big debate all over again. Are you surprised that this has become an issue for the U .S. again? To be honest, I'm not.

I want to be sure about the debate because when you look at the numbers provided for example by Eilis and Krejcik.

researchers, you can see that normally when there is a simultaneous operation of online and land -based, both sides profit from it. As I outlined before, also being a supplier out of Europe and being with GreenTube for 13 years, I had the chance to take a look at land -based and online and actually work on a product that is the marriage of those two.

I'm convinced that the future is offering both, is offering a 360 degree solution that will ensure growth on both sides because at the end with the respective marketing tools where the US is, I think, a great example how to do it and not limit marketing too much. You can, on the one hand, of course, in a protected environment, but you can send a player where

Andrew McCarron (10:39.598)
you think he's going to benefit the most and where you have the best offers for him and that is sometimes land -based and sometimes online. So yeah, numbers don't really show for me a cannibalization if you take a market online. I don't see that. Yeah, you mentioned the US has, you know, the states that have it, it's a good structure. There's a lot of synergy opportunities. I think everyone here,

at least in the industry realizes that the potential for iGaming is so much bigger than sports betting. But at the same time, you have a legislative year like we've had this year where nothing is really getting across the finish line. How much does, do you guys,

follow what's happening on the legislative front and how much does it impact your optimism about how big the North American market can be in the next five years? Yeah, of course, we're monitoring it very closely because once we stepped into the American market, the North American market, we said we're coming to stay. When we're coming to stay, it means also to be present in as many markets as possible.

Of course, it depends a lot again, also there for us as a supplier on the costs. What are the requirements, the legal requirements, what are the infrastructure requirements? All this might add quite significant costs. Some markets already try to reuse setups that are done for other states in the US, like for example, Connecticut.

basically use a data center that has been set up already. That of course is in our favor and that is something we like to see. But overall, especially when looking at the big states in terms of population and GDP, we can't wait for the next markets to go live. We were quite...

Andrew McCarron (12:50.67)
quite excited about the debate about New York. Unfortunately, okay, we have to wait a little bit longer. But yeah, looking at forecasts and as I said, we have good people on the ground that are monitoring the recent developments. We're looking towards Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, New Hampshire. And then of course still not keeping our eyes off New York. But whatever is there to come, we will...

take a look at the entry barriers, but make sure we are there from day one. Yeah, I hope for your sake and for the industry's sake that maybe the tax scheme on online casino is a little friendlier than sports betting is in New York. Although I guess in Pennsylvania, you've got something relatively similar when it comes to a tax structure, but over 50 % is not fun for anybody. You know, I gaining legislation,

being slow, it seems like now online lottery is becoming a topic that's getting more discussed. And it also seems to just be having an easier time getting legalized in some of these states. Why do you think that, you know, lawmakers are more open to that kind of expansion as opposed to online casinos? I think first of all, because in the iLottery field, very often it's then about, it's around the monopoly.

where you have one operator where you can then very specifically design the market for or basically also the rules, et cetera. While of course, if you then go to online casino and you say, okay, we regulate this market, then you need to make it right for many, many operators and suppliers. And it's a lot of...

a lot of work, maybe also overhead for the regulator. So I think this is one angle to it. The next thing is what we just discussed also, I think, because of the fear of cannibalization between land -based and online. This is also why markets are hesitant in moving faster in the online casino regulation.

Andrew McCarron (15:17.742)
I like to compare it sometimes because it was very interesting for me to see and have discussions in Europe about merging the two and provide a land -based solution that is actually connected to online, where there is nearly no intelligence in the machine anymore. You play the games on a gaming machine, but actually they're connected to server. We had discussions there with regulatory bodies and also they were quite hesitant because...

the data, you know, and it's safe on the machine. And it's like when I asked my grandpa to pay for on Amazon with his credit card. And slowly but surely, I'm sure the development will be there and it will come and there will be enough examples to see how you can do it and how you can become about it. And like this, I'm sure it will be self -fulfilling and basically...

Yeah, just continue to grow and we will see more markets in the future. Green2 works in both the iLottery and iGaming spaces. I think to some people who aren't as familiar with the products, they can sometimes just feel one in the same. So what are the key differences between iLottery games and online casino games? What can one vertical offer that the other can't? Because it seems like...

in Pennsylvania, in Michigan, where there are both, they do seem able to coexist. Yeah, I mean, there's no universal answer for this. But what iLottery can offer is different in each state and country. We see what we see in both areas, iLottery and in iCasino is that the...

that the games are the trends are a little bit changing or there is more how to say there is more

Andrew McCarron (17:15.182)
operators and suppliers are willing to try out more different mechanics, different styles. There's also a little bit of a cross -influence, like when iLottery sees a little bit what is done in iCasino, what are trends there, that these trends are being taken over to the iLottery as well in some kind of way, of course, within the boundaries. They both differ a little bit and sometimes, of course, also in RTP, return to player,

In the rule set, what you can really offer, for example, a classic slot game, in most of the lotteries you will not see it. Canada, we know, there are PCLC, etc. They also offer slot game content for online, but you will see them rather something like scratch cards, like Tapper games, like easy games. Very easy, you press a button, you see the result right away, more or less. Which...

Also, it's interesting, it's also then influencing a little bit the online casino because also people there and you can see that globally, especially in South America at the moment, the easy games like Aviator, it's when it's an airplane flying and you just bet when it's going to crash, it's one button click, that's it and then you watch it. There's no, how does this feature work? What do I need to aim for here or there?

Very simple and I think this is an influence that we can see going forward. It is actually then iLottery influencing a little bit the iCasino world. And we're very happy here actually to have acquired Present Creative, which is now GreenTube US, which is coming from the iLottery world in the US and helps us to see the strengths, catch the strengths early enough. And then we used it for iCasino.

You have perfectly teed up my last question for you, which is, you know, what kind of game trends do you think are on the horizon? And is there any for the US in particular, is there a particular title or genre that is something different than the way other markets have functioned? You know, and what they prefer? Yeah, like I see, I see a greater, greater variety coming through. Like I just said, um,

Andrew McCarron (19:39.342)
There are more experiments, maybe there are more mechanics coming. In general, what you can see in the US is that very often, of course, trends are first created in land -based and then they are reflected into online. Recently, you see this a lot with the three -pot games, coin trio, three little piggies. We have now actually piggy prices that we offer for online, which was a great success.

a three -pot game that works out very well, not just in the US, also in Europe. That is also something actually worth mentioning that it's, yes, you have one influence, which is a little bit the legacy coming from land -based and also that you see a trend developing in land -based and then moving to online, like we saw now with the three -pots, like you saw in the past with Link Progressive, with Hold 'n Spin Mechanic.

where we were, for example, one of the first, if not the first supplier that introduced the hold and spin mechanic into Europe, which gave us a great success. Now we brought the mechanic to Europe, we experimented there, adding additional mechanics, and we brought the mechanic back into the US. So on our game side, you see ThunderCache series, DiamondCache series.

So different linked progressives with a hold and spin feature that are showing a great success for us in the US. And this is also a little bit the way forward. There are a lot of mechanics already out there in Europe, in the US and other markets that are now being mixed. Everybody is trying to find the best recipe also for certain markets, maybe for certain states. I don't see...

To be honest, that much of a difference in the US, like if you go from one state to another. But there are some nuances where you can play around and I think this is also what's going to happen going forward. Successful game mechanics, experimenting with those influences from other types of gambling, but also from other types of gaming. I think this is also a valid step in the US.

Andrew McCarron (21:56.462)
Online gaming, so casual gaming, Call of Duty, Rocket League, Fortnite, doesn't matter. There is so much where the industries can maybe even learn from each other that I will be actually very interested to see where this is going to. And we as a tech company and as a supplier are always trying to be on the top of trends and also do our own research and do our own experiments. So I'm sure.

And as I said, we proved it a little bit by the introduction of piggy prices now and there are more titles to come. That with our experience in Europe, but now also the years we could gather experience in the US already, we can add value to the US markets and can be part of the party. Well, you already are and I'm excited to see what else you bring in the future though. Thank you so much, Markus from GreenTube for your time and your insight.

Guys, be sure to check out. We've got a great interview with one of your colleagues from last month with GreenTube on SBC Americas. I'll make sure we'll put the link to that in the description below. And as always, you can keep tuning in for more great interviews and news on every day's episodes of iGaming Daily.